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Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to HolyEvil)
The first would be Bb9#11/F....the second is just Bb9/F. You don't need to say "7 add 9" cuz the way extensions work, saying "9" implies the 7th is already part of the chord. You Would say "add9" only if there were no 7th in the chord.
Also, once you start extending a chord (meaning it is a 7th, 9th, or 13th chord), you don't need to have the 5th in the voicing. Some folks may think to call your first chord "Bb9b5/F" since the #11 and the b5 are the same sounding note, but that is not really correct since the musical setting for this chord would probably be A phrygian, which has an E natural in the scale and key signature, not F flat...plus you have 5th in the bass (F).
In modal terms, that first chord defines the mode "lydian dominant", or "lydian flat7", so you are missing just one note of the scale, G. Bb lydian dominant (mode 4 of F melodic minor).
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to Güiro)
quote:
is it important to know these types of things?
I would say its definately good to know chord theory and be able to name chords. Learning theory of music is definately useful to work with other musicians.
However I dont believe most flamenco Guitar players that I have met would be able to name that chord even though they know instinctively its a Bb substitution. Personally I know that is a chord of Bb with and F bass and I just use it in place of Bb sometimes when it sounds good. I certainly could not explain it from a modal point of view or know that A phrygian has a natural E in the key signature.
Ricardo knows this stuff backwards but I find my eyes glazing over when its explained to me in the same way as when someone trys to explain double entry book keeping. For practical purposes it it enough to know that its a variation on Bb.
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to ToddK)
any suggestions on how to get started? I have used this chord for a long time and knew that it can be used for a Bb substitution but never knew the exact name.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to Güiro)
Start by picking a scale you know well, just any old major scale, and build chords out of it's notes. You do that by taking a note, skipping the next one in the scale, and stack intervals. Start with triads (3 notes stacked), on each note of the scale, and get used to their "quality" (major, minor, or diminished). I can give more detailed example later, got to go now. Example to start, C major.... CEG-major DFA-minor EGB-minor F----etc G A B Try to finish that up then, do the same but add another note so you make 7th chords out of the scale. Example:CEGB-major7th
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to HolyEvil)
Ricardo,
I really admire your knowledge of the theory. I am very visual and auditory when it comes to learning. I have tried to put time into learning the theory and find it difficult. It usually results in my brain shutting down.
Anyway, Just wanted to say that i admire all you theory guys.
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to HolyEvil)
Hey Todd!
Forgive my limited theory knowledge.I am not sure if it is, in theory a sub for b flat. I picked up this chord from Carlos Heredia. He uses it a lot in the place of bflat when playing bulerias in a for example. The sound is dissonant but this is the correct chord. Anyway, I like it.
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to Guest)
quote:
b does not have to be of major quality. Many guitarists have taken advantage of modality and Bbm to A is actually quite common. Thanks KMM for the Carlos example.
This chord is also used in Chicuelo's Encuentro Bulerias. Pepe Habichuela also uses this chord in solea but the b3 is in the bass due to the lower register (also Encuentro).
Pepe uses it melodically.
I guess im thrown by the C and C#. Though clearly it has been used, even with the given example, i dont really hear it. Im sure its a context thing. If i heard it with more of the context prior to its use, i would probably "get it". This chord really needs to be set up by the melody. I wish i had the Chicuelo video. I bet its awesome! TK
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to HolyEvil)
Well I was going for helping start out on simple triads, and you guys bring up some heavy **** there.
The Bb chord is not really a minor7, it is a Bbminor add9/F. Todd, the normal voicing is like Bb-F-C-Db-F, So you hear the dissonance of C and Db in the middle of the chord. What this chord is kind of a muddy version cuz the dissonance is heard as a maj7 instead of minor 2nd, plus you got 5th in the bass. Transpose to Am and see what I mean:
0 0 2 2 3 0
Am add9, but E bass makes in muddy.
Anyway, in context, the idea is to evoke a melodic minor vibe. That is why the minor7 idea (It is cool Romerito) is not always the point. You need A natural (like in Kris's examples) at least melodically to get the "vibe". Bb melodic minor. Very impressionistic. You can think of it as A superlocrian as the modal setting related to 'por medio".
The reason it works is cuz the A super locrian and the A spanish phrygian share some colorful notes, A,Bb,C, C#(or Db is the trick), F, G. The only weird note is Eb of A super loc and E natural of A phrygian don't mesh, but that makes the "change" of modal settings seem exotic and jazzy.
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to HolyEvil)
Hi Romerito!
I love his playing and i would always go and watch him in la carboneria in Seville when he was playing there. I was given a copy of a video lesson with Carlos where he plays his full bulerias and solea. His playing on the video is awesome, Very Gypsy and great feel. I also have a video of of him playing for Remedeos Amaya.
I became obsessed with his playing for a while and worked out a lot of his stuff. I have the CD with jason also.
The video lesson is on VHS but i will convert it over and share it with you guys. I am in the process of moving so all my stuff is boxed up. When i get settled again i will you tube it and share the link.
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to HolyEvil)
Thanks for that explanation Ricardo. I am working my way through bit by bit and telling my brain to concentrate. Lol !!
This Carlos style of resolving to the A while maintaining the little finger on the b flat seems to work well in transitioning between a minor and A major in flamenco, For example..
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to HolyEvil)
thats a classic, were those kids drinking vino blanco
never leave ur young kids at child minding in the sacromonte.
hes guitar sounds like mine after i feel on it, yet hes playing in rhythm !!. amazing video.
the mlodic minor (mode lydian b7) is imperative to jazz players and melodic rock players , so building (Ricardo says"stacked 3rds) is mas importante to hear the tonality and to use the melodies as a compositional tool.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: what is the name of this chord? (in reply to KMMI77)
quote:
Ricardo! Is the use of the third chord in this progression creating something similar ? It seems to offer a similar result to my ears.
Yes, but different melodic minor than the one I was talking about before. The two chords there C7, then what would have been a C9 (if not for the A bass and omission of C), together create your C Lydian Dominant scale (mode 4 of G melodic), yet another mode of melodic minor. That ties in to the very first chord of this thread, although you are in key of B instead of A.
quote:
Hi Ricardo. You lost me when you said I need A natural. I included that. And from a functional perspective I did not say minor7 but Aug6 (though to be fair the aug6 has a lowered 3rd and therefore the same sound as the minor 7).
Sorry, my point was that the minor7 chord needs Ab. Either Ab or G# takes away from the melodic minor mode idea I was pointing out (That being Bbmelodic minor or A superloc) which I felt was the "vibe" for Kris's example. Including the G# changes the "vibe", even though there are several common notes. You get more of a pulling towards A with the leading tone G# (like in Bb lydian dominant) but the minor third kills the lydian vibe and gives you more of a "changing keys" kind of thing. Bb dorian->A is what I hear. Hope that makes some sense.
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