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val

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2010 14:54:29
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to val

Hi Val,

So which link is the minera to be confirmed?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2010 22:27:25
 
val

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2010 1:30:54
 
Florian

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to val

thats Sequiriyas...great videos

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2010 1:49:23
 
val

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2010 5:59:22
 
Ricardo

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to val

quote:

ORIGINAL: val

Thanks Florian. My first thought was that it was Sequiriyas, but I had this vague recollection of someone saying at the time (over a year ago) that it was a Minera (which I gather is similar). I bow to your experience. Thanks again.
Guys (and girls) - this is Costa del Sol Flamenco - not bad is it?
Val


Minera would be much similiar to Taranta, free style cante, very different then siguiriyas. Many people would think it or confuse it for a taranto or taranta. In terms of guitar, a guitar solo minera would be free also but differer from Taranta by the key (G# instead of F#). But the cante might be accompanied in either key. Hope that helps.

They say minera, cartagenera, taranta.....I would have thought the first cante was Taranto myself. Tomatito accompanies in key of Taranta F#. Now here Tomatito plays in key of minera (G#):


The girl singer is pretty good, I like the Malagueña.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2010 6:22:04
 
Florian

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to val

quote:

Thanks Florian. My first thought was that it was Sequiriyas, but I had this vague recollection of someone saying at the time (over a year ago) that it was a Minera (which I gather


its funy sometimes the more you hear the less clear it becomes....

there was a time when i had only a small handfull of albums in my collection and I didnt know how to accompany any of it but everything was somehow clearer and was able to pick what things were straight away..with confidence and without questioning myself

but then the more you learn, hear and see the more you start to question yourself

some musical solos i have to wait till somehere in the midlle of the song to pick what they are lol

i wish i could know what i know now ( not that i know much lol) but be as confident as i was when i didnt know anything

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2010 7:12:53
 
veet

 

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From: L.A.

RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

They say minera, cartagenera, taranta.....I would have thought the first cante was Taranto myself.

I think you're right. The third one has the melody I've always heard called Minera. I think the video titles have it swapped. Cartagenera in the middle is correct.

V
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2010 13:13:35
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to Ricardo

I think they got the labels right, although some people don't agree on the names for certain mineras and tarantos, which are pretty similar in nature. Camarón's third cante is a taranta; I don't know which one exactly, but it's clearly related to La Gabriela. There's an audio file on this page of Pastora singing the taranta they call "de La Gabriela."

http://flun.cica.es/flamenco_y_universidad/BDatos/consulta.BDatos.php?interprete=NI%D1A+DE+LOS+PEINES&a_edicion=%25&n_disco=&formato=%25&palo=TARANTAS&estilo=%25&t_cante=&guitarrista=

The beginning is almost exactly the same. There are differences after that, but I don't think it's because of Camarón taking liberties or anything; that's why I say he's probably singing one of several tarantas that are related to La Gabriela.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2010 22:50:01
 
flybynight

 

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to veet

quote:


its funy sometimes the more you hear the less clear it becomes....


I agree with this sentiment.

At the beginning, you're trying to consciously understand what separates the different palos. At first, it's subtle, then it gets easier.

Then your brain crosses a threshold of absorbing all that, and decides that it wants to subconsciously understand the commonalities of the palos. Especially those within the same grouping ie. 4 beats, 12 beats.

After that, it get's confusing again. Just when you think you've 'got it'..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2010 23:50:08
 
veet

 

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Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to NormanKliman

quote:

I think they got the labels right,

Well, the first one, labeled minera, is the identical melody Camaron uses in "Sonidos Negros" which I've always seen called a taranta. And the third is the melody I've seen called minera in :

"he comprao, una botita de cartera,
ay mira lo que, he comprao.
Y con sus botones a los lados, ay.
Te pueda poner cuando te quieras,
Yo vengo de la mina carbonera, ay."

(from the solo compas levante collection)

Not that it matters all that much, it's all levante.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2010 16:41:45
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to veet

Hi Veet,

There's still some disagreement as to what the right names are. For example, the way you said, "It's all Levante," some people would say "They're all tarantas" as a general category. According to some, "Levante" includes all the slow fandangos as well, like malagueñas and granaínas, but I think that really confuses matters. Like you, I prefer to say "Levante" for the general category, although "cantes de las minas" or "cantes mineros" is probably more specific.

Anyway, talking about this stuff is fine (very interesting, actually), but without being able to hear the music it goes nowhere. I haven't got any "Solo compás" recording and I don't know which Camarón recording you're referring to. The letra you posted is usually sung por levanticas (similar to the recurring theme heard in Montoya's instrumental Rondeña).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2010 23:04:52
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to NormanKliman

And to add another one, on the Record Queen of the Gypsies, with sabicas playing por minera but with compas of 2/4 like Taranto, Carmen sings what sounds like Taranto to me, but they call it "Rondeña".

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2010 4:07:37
 
Arash

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to val

its also often difficult to seperate minera and taranta for me, when talking about cante, as a guitarist can accompany in different keys for cante also.

guitar solo is clear: you have different keys. F# , G#

but in cante,,,,hmm,,,, also without understanding the letras, etc., even more difficult

i think there are just some minor details, and if you don't hear much cante all the time, you can't distinguish so easy these two

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2010 4:47:47
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to Arash

The only solid thing I have noticed is I have never heard minera, taranta, cartagenera, etc etc, sung by a pro or good serious singer, that did the ending with E# before the final F#....which DOES happen many times in Taranto. Granaina also does that sometimes. That is about the only solid rock I have on it, (not including the exact lyrics of course, of which there are way more options then melodies). But I am sure the is an example out there somewhere.

I like Porrina who used to announce what he sings each time, as the guitarist plays his intro.. He says, "here I make a mix of Taranta and Taranto" and sings just one letra. Want to here it?

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2010 6:04:36
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo:

Ha! I knew the word rondeña was going to draw you back into this thread!

One of Manuel Torre's two taranto recordings was originally titled "rondeña" (the label on the 78 rpm disk). There's a lot of speculation about that and Carmen Amaya's recording.

quote:

...the ending with E# before the final F#...


That's a good detail to point out because everyone does it today. I've been looking for it but haven't found it on any old recordings, so it might be a recent development.

Edit: I hadn't noticed your offer to hear that Porrina recording. Of course, bring it on man! Like I said, these conversations go nowhere if we can't hear the music! Is it the "ramo de olor" letra?

Arash, I agree that it's harder to be "tuned into" singing. Two voices might be completely different "instruments," but a guitar is a guitar, so cante is harder to recognize sometimes. Also, singers get to use different words and that's another dimension that we don't even have on the guitar.

For me, the only way to get singing styles into my head is to have some kind of intense experience. Of course, if I really like a cante and hear it a few times, that's intense enough. But in the case of the taranta I was talking about, de la Gabriela, I'd heard it a few times but never paid much attention because I don't particularly like Levante singing styles. But one day at the peña I was sitting pretty close to the singer, Paco del Pozo, and he finished a series of these cantes with that taranta. He was really straining, like his head was going to explode or something! It was pretty intense and the experience made an impression on me. Afterward someone said which cante it was and I decided to remember that name for future reference (even though I couldn't remember what he sang very well; I haven't got a great memory like that). So I found one of Pastora's many versions and it immediately took me right back to that moment in the peña. To this day I can visualize him singing that. So I'm not telling you all of this to brag or tell stories or anything. What I want to say is that if there's some initial experience, when you listen to other versions it reinforces that first experience and makes it a lot easier to hear a cante more clearly in your head. John O once posted about how, when you're learning a falseta, if you've got something else going on in your head, it seems to burn that into your memory too, along with the falseta. Maybe that works the same way.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2010 6:59:32
 
Arash

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to val

thanks for the hints guys.
ricardo, yes, i want to hear it,thanks

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2010 7:56:21
 
veet

 

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From: L.A.

RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to NormanKliman

quote:

I don't know which Camarón recording you're referring to.

Sonidos Negros, from the live Paris 87 album with Tomatito playing (in a non-standard tuning, I'm pretty sure.) It's gorgeous, if you haven't heard it, by all means check it out-
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2010 10:11:14
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to NormanKliman

quote:

Edit: I hadn't noticed your offer to hear that Porrina recording. Of course, bring it on man! Like I said, these conversations go nowhere if we can't hear the music! Is it the "ramo de olor" letra?


ok
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=123438&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2010 10:28:06
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo, thanks for uploading that. Now I feel kind of dumb because I've got nothing to say! It doesn't sound like anything I've heard before. Pepe Culata recorded the same letra but with different music, and El Turronero recorded that letra, too, although I didn't bother chasing down his version. Maybe something similar will turn up, but it's got some very unusual tercios. In any case, in a few weeks I'll ask a friend who probably knows but is out of the country right now. It sounds to me like the tercios are sung in an unusually high range the whole time. But that's just my first impression, so I'll keep listening and checking against a pretty big database I've got. Thanks again for uploading that. This is what we have to do if we want to have meaningful discussions about cante.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2010 12:00:22
 
Ricardo

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to NormanKliman

hey don't bust your brain over it man! Porrina does everything with his characteristic melisma, in the end changing the melody so it all resembles his famous fandangos. To me he just was faking it, and in the end he calls it his own thing, even announced it! He hits the wrong notes for the guitarist to give A major, he doesn't make use of G# he goes to G natural and stops there! And other things. But the range is ok for taranto, he is just doing his own thing with the letra I guess.

But who knows, maybe you will find a note for note other version of this that he is copying, but my guess is in La Union, the mineros that sing would think he was faking this one. Oddly I remember a guy in Rito y Geografia that WAS an actual miner, and singer, and he had the same sunglasses and hair doo as Porrina, a total rip off.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2010 13:05:26
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

hey don't bust your brain over it man!


Sorry, that's like asking a cat not to get excited about an empty paper bag!

quote:

he had the same sunglasses and hair doo as Porrina, a total rip off.




I used to think Porrina was blind because of those big sunglasses but also because of the impossible color combinations that he used to wear. I mean, like a bright red shirt, an orange tie, salmon-colored pants and a yellow jacket (with a bright red carnation on his lapel). White shoes and belt, of course.

So I mentioned that one day as a casual comment to my first teacher, just the part about Porrina being blind, and he thought it was hilarious. I guess he filled in the blanks about the clothing, because I didn't mention that until after he'd laughed himself silly. You should have seen the look he gave me for a split second, like he wasn't sure if it was some kind of clever joke or just me being naive!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2010 3:15:32
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to NormanKliman

Almost same happened to me. I was showing the vid of Paco and Porrina fandangos to a singer and he sings the letra about the painting of a woman, and I was like "how would he know?"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2010 10:06:24
 
veet

 

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From: L.A.

RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to NormanKliman

quote:

The letra you posted is usually sung por levanticas
Norman -
You're absolutely right, that is a levantica - I checked, and I'd misremembered that as a minera. The beginning melody of the Camaron youtube third letra is the same as that levantica, but then it goes somewhere different after the beginning.

I have to listen to more mineras to try and get a grip on that form.
It also seems like there's a lot of liberties taken by cantaores who mix and match, in the levante genre as a whole.

Your encyclopedic knowledge of the forms is an asset I'm very grateful for -
V
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2010 16:51:22
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to veet

Hi Veet,

Thanks for saying that; that was nice of you. You seem to know what you're talking about, too! I look forward to having more cante discussions on this forum!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2010 22:00:55
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