RE: 1 year of flamenco

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mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

Recordings cost very little, but to learn from a record entails playing it back numerous times, which means lifting the needle, putting it back, never in exactly the right place, etc. Incredibly cumbersome. A tape has to be rewound again and again to listen to it numerous times.

never mind the fact that flamenco musicians have learnt by doing exactly what you say here (including me up 'til recently) since the advent of available and affordable technology, we now have cd, dvd and pc - i have an absolutely basic pc, and i'm pretty useless with technology, but i can rip any cd to my pc and slow it down to half speed with windows media player without losing pitch. i also have a media player that will slow down video, it lowers the pitch same as tape, so at half pitch it's an octave lower. I can also pick a beginning and end point and loop a particular passage.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2009 12:05:26

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

I was able to learn them in no time flat for the very reason I have stated above – it's right in front of you, so you can easily play it many time in succession.

most people who can sight read don't remember what they've just read straight away (many can't play anything without a printed score) and have to repeat what they read until they remember it.

it's no quicker for a reader to be able to play a whole piece with the sheet and then have to spend x amount of time memorising the sheet than it is for an ear player to spend x amount of time learning and memorising the notes one by one. for most good ear players they can learn a piece quicker than a reader can memorise it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2009 12:15:03

luke.park

Posts: 114
Joined: Dec. 29 2005

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to kozz)

Hey Koz,

You're on the ball with the practise there! Bad habits can creep in so easily with technique, and they're difficult to banish! Even when it reaches the point that you feel its a lot easier to pick up falsetas and eventually pieces, keeping up that focussed self-awareness is key. I'm going through all the simple technique drills again now to get rid of a lot of technique shortcuts I was taking..

Good luck mate! Congrats!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2009 12:34:29

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to kozz)

quote:

thank you...but still you did not listen to any of my recordings,

That's true, perhaps an upload here on the forum?

quote:

Hey Koz,
You're on the ball with the practise there! Bad habits can creep in so easily with technique,

Thanks Luke,
I feel comfortable with it, I've done now this week from the OH book the 6 rasgeado patterns as that was my goal and it seems to have worked out. Pure compass playing and start to recognize some patterns from Solea's I listen to. It makes me smile.

Normally it would have given up pretty quickly and moved over to something else which I would have given up also and than again moved over to another thing.

I even did find time to do some theory and learn the neck a bit. I neglected that. Just looking at the numbers from the tab doesn't teach you the neck is my opinion so I made a Visio drawing from the neck with all the notes and than extracted from that a few scales with only the notes in that scale on the neck.
Maybe a bit analytical, but that's what I am. If I don't structure things it gets a mess.

Notation or tab?
Well, when I was creating a exercise sheet I had to look into notation rhythm so I learned a lot about that. But actually reading from notation is very hard, I prefer tabs. Mostly because all the dots and sticks and bars mostly distract me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2009 18:33:14

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to El Saare)

quote:

what is your clue when you like to play with violin or so on..... "let's play in C"

as John says, if your ear is good, you can find the tonic note and work out the key. but i accept the point you're making, that if you want to play with other musicians from other music styles and they want you to play a sheet of notes or a chord chart then reading notation can be useful.... but then that wouldn't be flamenco, would it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 7:12:48

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to kozz)

quote:

I made a Visio drawing from the neck with all the notes

i had some blank guitar neck diagrams a jazz player gave me, and i draw out scales and arpegios etc., you can write the letter names of notes, or put in left hand fingering (which is what i do)

if you like, i will try to upload some...

looks like it worked ok,

"thanks Scott, i'm still using your neck diagrams, if see this, get in touch"

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 7:15:27

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)

here's an example of how i use these to draw out scales and arpegios etc. with left hand fingering

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 7:42:57

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

here's an example of how i use these to draw out scales and arpegios etc. with left hand fingering

um..... oh dear..... no I'm not getting that at all

Bit of an explanation pretty please?!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 7:58:20

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

here's an example of how i use these to draw out scales and arpegios etc. with left hand fingering

Hee Mark,
I use something similar. One part is a written reference as attached and the other ones are blanc.
Creating this actually made a lot clear about scales and how to build them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 8:20:03

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to kozz)

And here's one about the andalucian cadance I've tried to figure out from start.
I could have copied it from somewhere but that would miss the point of trying to understand it
..I hope it is ok...still have to finish it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 8:24:13

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

um..... oh dear..... no I'm not getting that at all

Bit of an explanation pretty please?!

Jingle not got you to do this? He told me to use coloured pens and everything! But that was a while ago, so maybe he doesn't use this idea anymore.

Ok, you recognise the guitar neck, and the frets etc.? and you familiar with those little chord box diagram things? same idea, the numbers represent your left hand fingers. These are visual pictures of the guitar neck, frets and strings, and they show where your left hand fingers will go to make a scale or arpegio (one at a time!)

If you want to play one of the scales, start with the lowest note, and progress up 'til you hit the highest... then come down again.... or you can start with the highest note if you want....!

same idea for the arpegio's (these are not like right hand arpegio's, where you hold a chord with the left hand and play PIMA or something, these are "left hand" arpegio's, where you are playing the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th notes of the scale - in a way that is a "true" arpegio)

ok, if you still don't get it, at the top of the page you got E Phrygian scale. Start with the open E/6th string, then play the string again, but this time with your first finger on the first fret of that string, then play it again with your third finger on the third fret of that string, then play the open A/5th string, then play that string again with your second finger on the second string, and continue on up..... get it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 8:35:53

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to kozz)

quote:

I use something similar

mine is like your neck with notes, but for learning to play scale patterns you don't need to know the letter names (you can learn them as well if you want, but it's not necessary), you need to know where to put your left hand fingers, so mine just cuts straight to that....

and with the blank sheet i was given (which i have been perpetually photocopying), you can write, say E major/Ionian first position in the first box, F# Dorian second position in the next one, G# Prygian fourth position in the next one, so you have whole sheet with the mode scale patterns in the key of E on one sheet, then do a sheet for each key etc. I just scribbled out a few random scales and arpegios on one sheet as an example

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 8:42:17

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

mine is like your neck with notes, but for learning to play scale patterns you don't need to know the letter names (you can learn them as well if you want, but it's not necessary), you need to know where to put your left hand fingers, so mine just cuts straight to that....

So maybe I am overcomplicating things?
I have to look what you mean...are the numbers the posibilities where to put your fingers, like 1 is for all places i is used?

Could you post one sheet as you described, say like for Emaj...sounds interesting

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 8:48:50

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to kozz)

quote:

One part is a written reference as attached

btw your A melodic minor is actually A natural minor/Aeolian mode

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 8:50:31

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to kozz)

quote:

are the numbers the posibilities where to put your fingers

the numbers tell you which left hand finger to put down, and the location of the number on the chart tells you where to put it visually the same way chord diagrams work. on your chord diagrams you have black dots for where to put the left hand fingers, but you could write the number of the left hand finger instead of a black dot....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 8:53:46

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

btw your A melodic minor is actually A natural minor/Aeolian mode

Ah, thanks...I've changed it.
Working it out like this makes things a little bit more clear....Never understood what the relative minor was...I could read it thousands of times but not get it..now I do...at least 1 part nailed.
I've used the circle of fifths, which I could not understand why it was so handy, but I think a small lightbulb start to glow....
It's pretty damn hard, my head always gets crazy when I hear people speak so easily about it....it'll come with the years I suppose

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 9:00:45

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to kozz)

quote:

Never understood what the relative minor was

yeah, it's called "relative" 'cos it's the exact same notes as it's "relative" major

the harmonic fits the chords (think Farruca, A-, E7, the natural/relative minor scale has G natural, and the E7 chord has G#, so the Harmonic minor scale has G# to fit the harmony instead of G natural)

music theory is like a jigsaw puzzle, when you've got all the pieces in the right place it's really simple, but when you've only got a few pieces and/or they are all jumbled up, it seems really confusing!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2009 9:07:41

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: 1 year of flamenco (in reply to kozz)

This week I've started with the Gerardo Nunez book.
There are some really nice pulgar excercises in it and I started with one.
For me it is best first write out all chords and than start the exercises. As a test I'd put the chords as a background image and it seems to work to have a visual this way.
I am able to grap most of the chords in sequence but a lot of stretching work needs to be done.

Here's my background image, maybe it can be usefull if you want to start the Nunez exercise.