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***Intermediate Challenge Entries***   You are logged in as Guest
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Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** 

There are four entries for this difficult challenge. Well done to everyone who sent one.

Judges and challengers: please send your comments to me for collation:

flamencoguitarcourse@yahoo.co.uk

1/4 sandalwood


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2009 15:08:19
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

2/4 macassar


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2009 15:10:03
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

3/4 palo santo


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2009 15:11:51
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

4/4 maple


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2009 15:13:29
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

That completes the challenge entries.

Please do not post on this thread until the judging is complete and the winner announced.

Thank you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2009 15:15:17
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2009 15:21:41
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge RESULTS*** (in reply to Ailsa

Here are the results you have waited a week for - it is incredibly more nerve-wracking using this method, although the numbers are so close that even I only knew just a minute ago who was the winner.

To save you biting your nails any longer, I will give you the results, followed by the comments for each entrant, followed by the calculations (not a straighforward addition, because the judges' scores are worth three times the scores of the entrants themselves).

The winner by just 0.75 of a point is Macassar - Deniz, with 164.75 points
Sandalwood - mrMagenta got 161.25 points
Palo Santo - gshaviv got 101.25
Maple - at_leo_87 got 164 points

Well done to all the participants who must have worked very hard on this challenge, and I hope their playing has benefited from it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 13:40:16
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge RESULTS*** (in reply to Ailsa

Comments for Macassar

deteresa 1
technique 6
timing 5
aire 4
Total 15

You took it slow, probably for the picado, which ended up biting you in the ass. Not only because the aire of Solea por Bulerias is not correct at this speed, but also because 90% it was TOO slow for you and you ended up rushing, causing your timing to be off throughout the performance.

Heard a little bit of dynamics in the intro, good job.
:17 pull-offs a mess. Don't focus on the first note, use it as an adornment sliding into the main (second) note.
The picado of course, was poor.
rasgueados feel solid
1:03 missed golpe above the strings
arps feel solid
1:23 alzapua could be more crisp but at least it's there ;)
1:40 decent job with the falseta



doitsujin
Points: 25
You played slowed down. Even a few beats make it much more easy I think… So.. for the same playing at higher speed you would get more points. :.)
Your accentuation is very nice! You play extremely slow but the accents at all the necessary points are there. Very good IMO!
You play some thumb parts in the end very differently to the original… I have the feeling that the original fingering is easier… :.D Why do you change it? Changing original-compositions in flamenco is very ok for me, when you don´t make something more complicated. That’s one of the greatest things about flamenco! The variation!
All together because of the accents I like it more than Sandalwoods version, but you are much slower so there you two are equal in the end.
Rhythm: well done. Get more speed.
Accents: nicely done!
Technique: sounded also very good to me. Why didn´t you used a faster loop??



at_leo_87
Technique 6; Aire 5; Compas 6
Total 17

I feel the speed doesn't suit this song very well but it was a good choice for you because you handled it well. You also changed a bunch of parts but again, it worked for you because you played them well. But I have to deduct some points because the spirit of the challenge is to learn a difficult piece, not make our own version. It wouldn't be fair to judge it against the normal version. Learning the original helps you get yourself out of your comfort zone. Progress will be slow if you’re always playing or adjusting things to make it suitable for you. Overall, I felt this was too "safe" of an attempt.
You play very cleanly! But the ligados in the beginning needs some work. The second time sounded good though. What happened?
You’re definitely on the right track. Your technique sounds solid. Just keep working on it like I suggested to Sandalwood. Great job!



Jimi
19 points

That was very nice to listen to. You chose to play to a slow compás track which is a plus point because it suited your skills better, you felt more comfortable this way and it showed. You have a good understanding of compás, even if you started phrases at the wrong places, you quickly found your way back. It was good to hear that while you obviously practice a lot with attention to detail, I could still hear the "looseness" in the soleá por bulería, I can't really find the words to describe that feeling.
Some technical things, you need to improve your picado, it sounds like your fingers move too much, it'll be easier once you find your ideal position and your fingers move just very little. I like your rasgueados a lot. So now work on speeding this up and practice the final two compáses more.

You're a good intermediate player and I'll expect you to do well in future challenges.



Ron.M
Overall Score: 25
The sliding picado and general picado section obviously let this otherwise pretty respectable piece down
Nice alzapua sections and good phrasing/attack.
A very good effort, but essentially the same comments and advice as above, however I feel you are futher ahead, as some parts sound very good to me.



Ricardo
Points 23
Good job going at a slow tempo, better for your level. Not quite tight enough the first falseta, but that is a tricky synchopation better suited to advanced players. Your Picado, like sandalwood, needs work. Slow down and plant each note good with the right hand before you cut loose. On the other hand your rasgueados sound very good, good compas (strumming and in general with the traditional sections), and arps and alzapua not bad at all either. You are getting a good dig in sound. Now you can work on getting things up to speed to project the feeling. You are not as quick and solid with the rhythms as Sandalwood, but you have the good idea to work slow and dig in to get the sound. Keep up the good work.


Henrik duende 20


ToddK
Score= 24
Immediately i noticed you had to slow it down quite a bit. The run at 32 seconds is very ruff. The rasgueados in the entrance (first minute) are decent, but need more power. Rhythm wasnt bad. Arpegios are pretty good. Would like to hear you dig in more. Even though its slowed down, it was fairly solid overall, and i would always
prefer that to trying to go too fast for what you can realistically do.



Matic
Points 30
I liked that you decided to take a slower loop. It shows that this is the speed you are comfortable with at the moment. Playing slow is good because you can focus on small nuances and only by practicing first complicated details slow you can later fully and meaningfully incorporate them in normal or faster playing. I really enjoyed your entry, you have a strong timing, the falsetas are difficult in many aspects. You seem to know which things you need to focus on so just keep doing what you are doing and keep playing and perfecting these falsetas you learned here, gradually rise the speed and rule the world.



MrMagenta
total 22/30

The first chicuelo part with the slides and pulloffs was odd. Why didn't you let the notes ring? :o

After 0:46 it gets quite enjoyable. Your submission has more elements of free interpretation in it than the other ones. This works in its favor, since you frame the piece in a way that works musically for you. I don't know how to judge when parts differ from the original but make for a better result, but I won't take off points for it.

You did the nicest version of the final habichuela falseta, that's for sure.

I like how clean you managed to be in the habichuela arpeggios. You chose to simplify the tails of the remate-runs habichuela does after the alzapua, but they still sound decent. It's a good strategy to keep the more important bits flowing.

This was the submission that sounded the best to me, though it felt slightly sedated overall, partly because of the tempo. The ending could use some more energy.



gjMichelob
18/30
At a slower tempo. It seems as if the first falseta was played by a different person, struggling to play the notes, while the second falseta by a vastly more confident player. Good tone, nice Aire, but distant from the original version. 6 for Compas, 6 for Aire, 6 for Technique



gshaviv
accuracy - 8
sound - 8
aire - 7
total: 23

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 13:42:24
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge RESULTS*** (in reply to Ailsa

Comments for Sandalwood

deteresa1
technique 4
timing 8
aire 7
Total 19

This could have scored SO much higher if your techniques were all there, but you were still my favorite due to superior groove and aire. Starts off good, good feel and time on the first two compases, but could have used more dynamics like Chicuelo used.
:15 to :25 good work!
picado not too good, focus on hitting each note and digging in.
grooving in the compas part, but dig in more with rasgueados.
:56 needs stronger golpe above the strings.
arps a mess at the beginning of Pepe's stuff: too quiet,and not precise. Follow through into your palm after hitting the note on free strokes.
1:12 that's not alzapua,sounds like your nails are not right. Bummer.
1:30 timing a bit wierd in falseta, and you missed some notes. play stronger.



Doitsujin
Points: 25
Playing with more power would be good. Its overall very soft. There could be much more dynamic. The 3 last beats of the whole composition are good accentuated!
Fluently played except some minor tings. So you don´t need to focus so much on rhythm. Big point! You´re lucky..I think the rhythm is the most difficult thing to work on. :.)
You often somehow suck some tones away. There are supposed to be tones but they are silenced by accidental fingering I think.. You can easily change that if you find these parts and go through it a couple of times.
Rhythm: well done
Accents: work on accents!
Technique: well done



at_leo_87
Technique 7; Aire 7; Compas 8
Total 22
The part right after the intro chords including the descending picado was just great. Nice tone! Work on those arpeggios. Make them more even and pronounced. I’m glad you got the transition from the triplets to the sixteenth notes in the arpeggio section.
A little more time/practice and you would absolutely nail the whole song down perfect! Your compas is great. But play with a little more confidence and attitude and it'll help your aire. It’ll wake up the whole performance in general. You changed some parts of the song at the end. I think it’s important to learn close to note for note. It’ll help you get out of your comfort zone which is crucial for progress. You played the arpeggio section at the end differently.
I bet you play much better when you practice but recording probably made you nervous and screw up here and there. And what the heck was that with the backing loop two compases from the end, right at 1:55 on the 6? It sounded like it skipped or something.



Jimi
15 points
When I first listened to this entry, I though you were going to be my winner, but as I listened to all entries more and more, my opinion had changed, unfortunately. I really liked how you played the Chicuelo falseta, but then you ruined the experience by switching levels for the one by Habichuela.
When you played Chicuelo, it sounded like a very well rehearsed falseta, the playing's very good and you paid attention to detail. What you need to work on more is probably the arpeggios, they didn't sound clean enough.
This same problem comes back when you start Habichuela's part, you'll need cleaner arpeggios and alzapúas. You struggled with the latter and it also sounded rushed, so you could stay in compás. It's not such a bad thing though as it shows you understand the compás well. But then you messed up the end a bit by starting at the wrong place and then the thumb part. Practice your thumb playing.

A good entry with it's highs and lows, it sounded like you only had time to practice half of the challenge material. I'd ask you to practice the second half more and re-upload your entry, as the first part sounded like an advanced
player, the second more like an advanced beginner! You'll be a great player, but you'll also need to be more balanced.



Ron.M
Overall Score: 27
A nice feel and very good dynamics.
Good interpretation and execution of that sliding picado bit.
Good "cut" rasgueado and thumb work.
Great "alma" behind this.
I think some more practise and you could have a very presentable piece.



Ricardo
Points 25.
Very good compas and clean left hand moves. You are not yet on your way to advanced though because of some right hand issues. Picado needs to be worked on to get a good plant and control of the sound. Slow it down or do it in chunks. Your left hand is fast enough, but it should not lead the right hand.

Arpegio also same thing you need to articulate those notes clear. Get a good plant or grip on the string. Again work slow.

Alzapua same thing. You need to control that thumb stroke and work up to that tempo. Basically the gripping or planting of the other techniques forces you to have a controlled "dig in" sound, that you need with thumb work too.

Lastly the triplet section was not really together for either hand. This was a really tough piece, i think at your level you did very well with it. Keep it up!



Henrik duende 22



Deniz
17
Basically the same as Maple, just a bit more unclearly played in the some parts. The chord at 2:00 is a different one?



ToddK
Nice effort. 23
Niced trills in the begining. It starts out strong. But most of the arpegios are
off time. Everything ends up in compas, but its not very tight overall. Need work on the AMII rasgueados,
mainly the power. Rhythm on ras isnt too bad. You need to dig in and play harder overall.



Matic
Points 25
You did a nice job, at some points it was obvious the material needs to be practiced more at slow speed. Practice your arpegios, they sound weak. When you can play all the techniques very loud, you can pay a lot more attention to dynamics in your playing. These falsetas are the material you should be learning at this point, challenging but in your reach. You will improve, just play it slow and don’t miss the details.



gjMichelob
Points 14/30
An impoverished version of the original falsetas, where notes and phrasing were at times abridged or not emphasized. The tone is pleasant, and the edited score is generally played in compas. Aire however is lost to a certain struggle in carrying the phrases. Out of 30, score should be 6 for Compas, 4 for Aire, 4 for Technique.



gshaviv
accuracy - 7
sound - 7
aire - 7
total = 21

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 13:43:51
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge RESULTS*** (in reply to Ailsa

Comments for Palo Santo


deteresa1
technique 5
timing 3
aire 3
Total 11

You struggled throughout the performance. I won't bother to point out all the spots where your timing was out, but it was all over the place. You seemed to be disregarding the individual beats, and figuring "well, it's all OK as long as I still stay within the 12"....

It sounds like mainly your left hand technique is slowing you down. It's no joke what they say about scales with the metronome, you will see RAPID improvement in your left hand, picado AND timing.
Intro not too bad, but falls apart at the first falseta.
Picado not working.
Rasgueados are half way there, as are arpeggios.



doitsujin
Points: 10
You play with nice accents, they are only in complete wrong timing. You are behind the compass.. the rhythm is messed up… hmmm Stop working on falsetas for the moment and learn the compass-feeling at first. You will learn falsetas much faster when you got the compass first. It will take much more time to go on with learning difficult falsetas but without feeling them in compass… So.. compas first. A good thing is,..you play with emotions. Work on the compass.. your playing will be muuuch better fastly. You have very good potential I think.
Rhythm: focus only on compass for some month!
Accents: when you got the compass, accents won´t be a problem for you
Technique: work on all strumming-techniques together with the rhythm



at_leo_87
Technique 4; Aire 5; Compas 4
Total 13
You are the opposite of macassar; you pushed it hard past your technical abilities. If only your technique was up to par... You need to get the whole piece to flow. It was very “choppy,” due to your technique and probably insecurity in your compas. Listen to the rhythm. You need to get those rasgueados even, same thing with those arpeggios. Don’t just throw notes out there. Look at the space in the music and fill them evenly and precisely. Work with a metronome on arpeggios, rasgueados, everything. Find a comfortable speed with a metronome and play on every click. Play quarter notes, then eighth notes, then maybe try some triplets or sixteenth notes.

I can tell this piece was a huge stretch for you but you had the guts to not only learn it but to also upload it for critique. You should be proud of yourself!




Jimi
10 points

I'm a bit lost for words here. This was a challenge for you alright, but I think it was much more than you could handle. On one hand I could praise you for trying this, but I could also be a bad critic and just slag you off because you didn't work this out properly.
In flamenco if you don't yet have the technique, you'll still be praised if you managed to play in compás. Unfortunately your tempo was very uneven, so practice even slower, you don't have to play all the notes, you can simplify the material you're trying to play and pay more attention to the accents. You need to re-listen to recordings you make and adjust your playing accordingly so you'll be more precise. It's like that with most of us guitar players, we don't really hear what we play because we can hear the original piece going on in our heads while playing and if it sounds close enough then we're satisfied. That's why it's so important to record ourselves, this is something I've learned recently too.

I think you're a brave guitarist approaching the intermediate level, but you'll need to do some more work.




Ron.M
Overall Score: 22
This piece is really too far ahead for you at the moment.
Too many technical problems to overcome in this very difficult and technical piece.
However, I can feel that you know the compás and form well.
You have a good feeling for Flamenco and the soul and sound of Flamenco guitar.
You are already way past beginners level and have a lot of listening experience in your head.
I feel you fuss about getting the right notes played correctly rather than just moving along with the compás.
But it's not necessary to play just these kind of top-level falsetas.
There are plenty expressive falsetas out there which use a tenth of the technique required here, which I'm sure you could do very well indeed and would still be perfectly acceptable at a Juerga anywhere in Andalucia.
Concentrate on getting some basic falsetas sounding really strong in compas, tone and phrasing would be my advice.




Ricardo
Points15
You seriously need to focus on tempo first. You understand the compas rather loosely which is a start, but this music is way out of your league at this stage. Work a lot on your rasguados and those traditional passages of bass line arpegios and other techniques, before you jump in with these tuff falsetas! Good effort though.




Henrik duende 16




Deniz
Points 10
I think you need to work more on pulgar technique! You took a lot of freedom at 0:50. Alot ;) But you were always back in compas at the accents, meaning you know how it supposed to sound.




ToddK
Score= 15
Right from the begining, you seem to have no sense of where you are in the rhythm at all. There are a few places
where you manage to get sort of in the compas/rhythm. But mostly, you are pretty far off. Your saving grace is
that you have a heavier touch than the previous 2 competitors ive heard so far. Work on your rhythm!!!





Matic
Points15
I'm afraid these falsetas are too much for you at the moment. They are actually very complex and could easily be a material for an advanced challenge. But nonetheless, you did a good thing learning it. Take more time and closely study the rhythm, play with a metronome and make sure you play it like the original. Listen to the original a lot. Ilegally download »Transcribe« and slow the recording down and listen, play along… Listen how they play the rasgueos in compas section… try to achieve their sound. It is possible, luckily not in one night.




mrMagenta
total 10/30

The notes were there, but you really need to work on rhythm and phrasing. Once you get how the rhythmic figures fit into the compases you'll have an easier time making the fingers follow. Take the compases one at a time, learn to 'sing' them in your head. Do this to the rhythm of your feet while you're walking and stuff like that. It takes time to get this material to settle, I know. Keep up the work, but let it take time. Work slowly and methodically and you'll get there.




gjMichelob
10/30
This was too difficult a challenge for this contestant. The struggle produces a chaotic performance, poor tone, no Aire whatsoever, Compas is here and there and nowhere. I am impressed that Palosanto kept the commitment and I must praise his effort, but the results leave a lot to be desired.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 13:45:30
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge RESULTS*** (in reply to Ailsa

Comments for Maple:


deteresa1
technique 5
timing 6
aire 6
Total 17

A close second. Nothing was horribly wrong except the alzapua, it was all just a little sloppy.
Work with the A string ligado run in the intro even though it may seem unimportant. You need a much cleaner pull off and more even notes.
Nice job with the first falseta, picado is getting there
Your recording or technique or both is not making the basses pop.
Rasgueados and groove are nice
Arpegios are OK
1:08 that's not alzapua...sorry. Break it down into separate strokes and make each on sound exactly right, then bring up the speed.
You too often ignore the details in this performance.
You had trouble with the treble notesn and timing in Pepe's last falseta.
In the last compas your rasgueado and golpe-strums are not hitting enough bass notes.



doitsujin
Points: 30
Very nice. I like the accents and rasguados. Very good dynamics. I think the overall speed of these particular falsetas is a slight touch too fast at the moment. The picado was messed only because of the speed I think. Play it a little slower for some weeks. But in total very nice! You are the winner IMO!
Rhythm: well done, just get the speed for these falsetas
Accents: very nice!
Technique: very nice!




Jimi
13 points

The talent is there obviously. However, I feel your playing is not evenly developed. The alzapúa part you "cheated" through, and the final few compáses in Habichuela's falseta was messy technique and tempo wise as well. I think while you did well, you could've done better had you chosen to play slower. What I said to Macassar about the picado
stands for you as well, work on it, and find the right position, they sounded more like free strokes than picados.
Your rasgueados are fine, those are something you worked on a lot, but they sound too aggressive compared to the rest of your playing and the bass notes are often non-existent, you need a fuller sound there. Another important thing you need to work on is thumb technique, as I mentioned earlier, alzapúas of course but also the single note
run with all the pull offs, you'll want to study it slowly and gradually work your way up to this tempo.

I like your playing and your enthusiasm shows through this recording, but don't try to swallow everything at once, be more patient, balance your playing, be more disciplined when practicing and you'll be great!



Ron.M
Overall Score: 28
This was my favourite by a hair.
Good tone and overall feel.
Good confidence in compás/phrasing interpretation too.
Same difficulty everyone had on the picado sections and a lot of screwing up on the alzapua parts, only I liked the way you didn't "fuss" over it and just got on with keeping in rhythm.
Good at getting the rasgueado confident, "corto", cut and short, so an extra point for this!
I think you already know the parts you need to work on, but as above, I think with more practise you would have a very presentable piece.
Olé!



Ricardo
Points 20
A good effort, but it is just too fast for you at this tempo. You need to slow things way down, at least like Macassar did, and work on control. You have most of the tools needed to work on this music, just SLOW DOWN.



Henrik duende 19



Deniz
20 Points
Chicuelo part was really good i thought. Including the compas at the
end of it. The Pepe part seemed to fall apart though. Picking a slower
speed would have resolved in clearer playing and better score.



ToddK
Score= 26
This entry was just a bit more solid overall than the others. Still very ruff in that first longish picado run, but not bad. And you lose the rhythm quite a bit in the second falseta arpegios. You have the strongest entrance rasgueados. Could be better, but they're the best of the 4. But again, very ruff in the middle of the second falseta, but
you close it out strong.




Matic
Points 20
You are not really able to play it at that speed. If you put the speed knob down a bpm or seven, you could show much better what you can really do. I can tell you from my experience you are loosing time practicing things at normal/high speed if you can't play them perfectly at that speed. So, practice stuff slow, maybe check on it from time to time how it's doing when you try to play it fast. You will be surprised that you won't even know when you improved so much that you are now able to play them rhythmically correct and with all the details at original speed. I can tell you feel the rhythm, you understand the falsetas, now just train your fingers.




mrMagenta
total 20/30

The first compases are alright but in the following two you cut the phrase short and get into a lot of trouble. At 0:39 you pick yourself up and do a decent job of ending chicuelos part, I think you nailed the dotted eigths. In the habichuela part you get into the same kind of trouble as me! Listening to the intent behind your playing it's obvious you're feeling the energy of the original players, I know how difficult it is to maintain the level of intensity when the material is so freaking hard, so good job on that!

Alzapua part throws you off but plus points for sticking in compas

Well done on the final rasgueados




gjMichelob
24/30
What this performance has, that makes it better than all others, is the distinct clarity of all notes played confidently and in compas. This rendition captures many of the details which were lost in the other recordings, but not without its own share of struggle. Aire 8, Technique 8, Compas 8



gshaviv
accuracy - 9
sound - 8
aire - 8
total: 25

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 13:46:55
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge RESULTS*** (in reply to Ailsa

The calculations were done in an excel spreadsheet which I can't upload, so I've tried to put it in a table, let's see if this works, fingers crossed.

Sandalwood, Macassar, Palo Santo, Maple

Todd, 23, 24, 15, 26,
xirdneH_imiJ, 15, 19, 10, 13,
GJ Michelob, 14, 18, 10, 24,
Duende, 22, 20, 16, 19,
Matic, 25, 30, 15, 20,
Ron, 27, 25, 22, 28,
Deteresa1, 19, 15, 11, 17,
Doitsujin, 25, 25, 10, 30,
Ricardo, 25, 23, 15, 20,

Sandalwood, X, 22, 10 20
Macassar, 17, X, 10 20
Palo Santo, 21, 23, X 25
Maple, 22, 17, 13 X

Total Score, 161.25, 164.75, 101.25 164

Really sorry guys - it's lost all its tabulation - the numbers are right but it's hell to decipher..... Any suggestions from those more technically able than me?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 13:48:14
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge RESULTS*** (in reply to Ailsa

For anyone who wants them I have all the comments as separate Word documents, which are formatted so may be easier to read. I also have the calculations as a spreadsheet. If anyone wants any of these, please email me at

flamencoguitarcourse@yahoo.co.uk

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 13:52:44
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

Jeez... i have counted my and leo's scores and it seems correct! 0.75 points ahead!!! Congrats leo, magenta and gshaviv!!

Thx for all comments and thx Ailsa you did a wonderful job! This was a hard challenge, the fact that only a third from thos who started managed to record something shows that. I took a slow tempo and i used the tablature Stu provided. I did a big compas mistake at the end, but got back in fairly decent IMO

Again thx to all, and have a good night!

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 14:26:17
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2923
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

wow, what close one!
I really didn't mean to come off like such a jerk...lol. Sorry for the low scores
But I did think that this challenge was too hard. I mean about 75% of the challengers dropped out. And the remaining attempts all had some kind of major problem. Anyway I congratulate all that were brave enough to enter this,

Especially Deniz!! congrats man.

Also Anthony, you practically tied him there!

For the record I can't stand this way of doing the scores, especially the 3/4 points and all that. Did we start having the challengers judge each other just because of Florian's hissy-fit?
Also, I like each judge having control over their own individual post. I had some general comments that got deleted at the beginning (not blaming Ailsa because she got the poop end of the stick with this new system). It just seems like more work for everybody especially the admin.

Ailsa, GO ENJOY YOUR VACATION!!

And congrats again to all!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 14:32:25
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to XXX

quote:

have counted my and leo's scores and it seems correct!

Yeah I did it the good old fashioned way too - it really is correct!

So sorry I forgot to post the general comments of the judges - I didn't delete them Andy, but collated them separately, and I have them as a separate word document too!! Just too many things to think about, and the first time it's been done this way. These general comments should have been posted before the specific comments. This really has been a labour of love for me. Anyway here they are:

GENERAL COMMENTS

deteresa1
This was a tough one. Which I guess is why so many people dropped out. It may sound easy, and it may in fact be "intermediate" material, but I think people have a tendency to put themselves into a higher category than they really are. I think a lot of people that put themselves in the "advanced" category would have been very challenged by this, especially at full speed. All performances had some nice elements but were all lacking in major ways. I HIGHLY admire anyone who was brave enough to put themselves out there with this.



Doitsujin
At first: Nice playing everyone! You are all close together, also the one who didn´t get so many points. Its only because of an essential thing..compas. So,.. please don’t be disappointed! Its great you all joined the challenge! So, what I did is,.. I tried to tell you what I think you should work most on instead of just rating everything. I think the challenges should have some use for the participants and not only a competition. I hope you have a use for my ideas about your playing. I enjoyed listening to any of your playing!!! Thanks!



at_leo_87
It was very tough judging you guys because I'm the same level and of course, my attempt was far, far from perfect. But I listened critically and gave you my honest opinion. I hope none of you take my comments and criticisms personally. I’m really nervous to read what’s coming to me. :( What a freaking tough piece. I hope you guys learned as much as I did and feel great about it. Ole!



Ron.M
I must admit, I was surprised at just how good all the attempts were at this very difficult challenge. As usual, with a lot of good Flamenco falsetas, the difficuly is not really in the main theme, but the finer points. The Devil is always in the detail with this stuff... And it's the detail that takes years to learn.

I am not making my scores as to how close the sound and playing is to the original falsetas, for these guys are amongst the best in the World, but more to what I would be expecting of someone claiming to be an intermediate player of this terrifically complex guitar style and bearing in mind I am judging more on what I know of good Flamenco guitar playing rather than how I actually play myself!

As I said, I was quite surprised at these brave attempts. IMO these falsetas are way far ahead of an "Intermediate" challenge and IMO a good professional would have to be on good form to pull these off correctly.

So very well done everybody!




Ricardo
First off, I feel the falsetas were quite advanced. The players were in fact, intermediate so the music was a little out of the league of the participants, which made it hard to judge fairly IMO. Still I tried my best to be fair.



Henrik duende
I don´t have time for going into improvements but overall it seemed just slightly too hard for most of you. But that´s the fun part isn´t it? Pushing yourself forward. Chicuelo´s rhythm is waaaaay out there. Pepe´s not always obvious either. I found it a bit odd that different tempos were allowed.



Deniz
Congratulations to all! Alot of drop outs show that this challenge was too hard. I picked the speed where i felt secure, although I also had a big compas mistake and the end.



gj Michelob
The Intermediate category is truly open-ended, and in this instance it really challenged the few who kept the difficult commitment and submitted their recordings. These were really difficult falsetas. I did not find any of the four to be true to the original. Each took some license at some or more points, departing from the original score, in terms of notes and tempo. I do not think any of the four was ready to record this, and I praise them for their spectacular efforts.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 14:41:55

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

Great job everyone!! OLE'

TK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 14:46:00
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

finally, the wait is over but now the heartache begins.

looks like you don't have to hate me anymore deniz. but now i hate you... j/k what i meant to say was congratulations!!!

thanks so much to all the judges who took the time to listen. your constructive criticism is invaluable.

and a BIG, BIG, BIG thank you to ailsa for not only being admin but dealing with all this crazy judging stuff.

i'll upload a video in a week or so when my nails grow back.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 16:04:10
 
xirdneH_imiJ

 

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Joined: Dec. 2 2006
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 2 2009 16:58:58
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 16:58:26

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

I have to agree with some of the general comments. These falsettas were simply to difficult for "Intermediate" players.
Actually, they are just plain tough, for anybody.

Entering a challenge, you always learn something.

I think we also learned, once again, something we probably already knew regarding the difficulty of the choice of material.

Among the challenges that have been held here, most of them, the material is too much.

When the Advanced challenge was announced, i posted a response saying that La Ardila was WAY too hard and that nobody here would be able to really do it justice. (myself included of course!) I still hold to that comment, even though things went pretty well. But i think in the future, we really need to be more thoughtful of the challenge material.
We need some "challenge guinea pigs" to test out material

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2009 20:03:10
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

Congratulations Deniz. Very good job.

I think you all did a very good effort on this IMO way to difficult challenge. I agree with Todd, i think the level on the challenges is way to high.

I hope that you all learned a lot working with these falsetas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2009 0:11:19
 
gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Yeap, I felt the challenge was way over my head, I would never attempt to play that kind of material in public, but I figured since I tried it and practiced some, and recorded myself a gazillion times, I'de submit anyway, even though I felt lousy about the submission.

Deniz, yes, I didn't get a long with that compas at 0:50 at all. It was basically a free ride and get back on track for the 12...

Good job everyone.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2009 1:41:06
 
mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

Congratulations Deniz! Well done!

Big thanks to the judges for all the generous feedback and insightful tips, this is the real prize of the contest imo.

And Ailsa thanks again for the hard work you put down!

A thought that perhaps should be addressed before the next challenge, I think the part of the score where we contestants judge each other has a problem built into it. judges always set their scales differently, if a generally restrictive judge gets points from more generous judges he will gain favor, so it pays off to set very low marks on your co-contestants. I guess this evens out if there are many contestants, but you never know.. this time we were only four.

As we're getting to know each other better, and begin recognizing each others playing it becomes harder to be anonymous, perhaps at some point we ought to do like they do in sports etc, and omit the highest score and the lowest score, when there are enough judges to do so that is.

All in all good execution though!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2009 1:57:57
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

I think you´ve got a point, I IMO its wrong to be both a participant and a judge.

Anyways, why do you always need so many judges. Trust them. They are doing their best.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2009 3:12:32
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1776
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, Hungary

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=118816&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

here's the analysis for the challenge for those who like stats...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2009 3:30:43
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

ole. Nice challenge!


Ok,... for future challenges: participants can not be judges... thats strange.
And.. no different speed should be allowed.

I think yes, we need a certain amount of judges because 2 people = 2 opinions. The more people, the closer we get to the overall general point of view. Many judges = good, A hand full of judges = gambling for a win

Judges should give input and suggestions what a challenger could improve instead of kicking ass... I like the way of giving positive feedback. Noone is helped being told "your playing sucks"

Just some ideas that popped up in my mind to develop our methods..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2009 12:19:29
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

yup, we're learning with each challenge. overall, i think this challenge was a success. so i think it's agreed on that contestants shouldn't judge anymore. and no one seems to like the "posting all comments on the same day" idea either. though, i do still think it's a good idea.

as for the difficulty of the piece, well it was damn difficult for sure. but, i learned A LOT. so i think the material was pretty appropriate.

so are we still doing videos?! i still got a bunch of recording questions i haven't asked!

edit: thanks again to all the judges for your comments! and another BIG thank you for ailsa!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2009 13:19:32
 
mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to Ailsa

I think now that the competition is over we can help each other with this piece in a series of follow-ups, so that it eventually becomes something presentable.

Personally I'm going to focus on technique - arpeggio, alzapua and picado. Planting, volume and clarity, follow through in free strokes, not lead picado with the left hand etc. I'll work on this for a few weeks or months, then upload a recording or video (not recorded on my voice recorder like I did this challenge).

In my mind I have a decent picture of this piece. I've worked as much with deciphering it as playing it. Been listening to the recordings a lot, wrote down the piece in sibelius, sang it to myself etc. If it sounds like i'm playing something else I think a lot of it is because I'm fumbling. I fudged a lot of stuff in the recording i submitted - The end of the picado reprise, the ending of chicuelos part, the first bar of habichuelas part, habichuelas beautiful triplet falseta, the second to last compas ending etc.

But the only parts where I departed from the original score on purpose was the third to last compas where habichuela does a weird arpeggio variation, I sacrificed that so I could easier get through the whole piece. Now that there is time I'll learn that closer to how I think it's intended, though I'm still not sure what Habichuela himself intended! Would like to hear what you make of it (the third last compas in the original recording).

GJ Michelob felt i departed a lot, all specific examples would be of good use so I can address them. I would like to be true to the material, at least while I'm learning it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2009 4:58:34
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1776
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, Hungary

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to mrMagenta

interestingly i got quite a bit of stick in the advanced challenge trying to stick to the material :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2009 5:07:43
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: ***Intermediate Challenge Entries*** (in reply to mrMagenta

quote:

I think now that the competition is over we can help each other with this piece in a series of follow-ups, so that it eventually becomes something presentable.


great idea

quote:


But the only parts where I departed from the original score on purpose was the third to last compas where habichuela does a weird arpeggio variation, I sacrificed that so I could easier get through the whole piece. Now that there is time I'll learn that closer to how I think it's intended, though I'm still not sure what Habichuela himself intended! Would like to hear what you make of it (the third last compas in the original recording).


the way i interpreted it is that everything is shifted down one beat because he plays an open E string instead of the bass C string followed by an arpeggio. so now that everything is shifted down one beat, he has to cut the last two bass in half to end on ten. kind of hard to explain but i hope you get what i mean.

jimi, did you get to practice this? will you be uploading an attempt?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2009 9:32:36
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