Bass strings on opposite rollers

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ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

Bass strings on opposite rollers

I saw a video on youtube by the infamous "Ruben", whom always seems
to cause a stir,and on most issues, i think he's a bit crazy.

But i took the advice and i really like the results.

Basically, you put the Low E string on the D roller (tuner) and the D string
on the Low E roller.

In this way, the string are symetrical, as the length from bridge to roller
is longer as the strings get thicker.

IT may be my imagination of course, but i can swear i like the sound better.

And the feel is different too, and i know that is not my imagination.
The D string is firmer, and the Low E is a bit slinkier.

I think it works well for flamenco or classical. I have all my guitars strung this way now, and i really like it.

Any thoughts?

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 2:21:10

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

TK,
I'd posted this a while ago at: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=117616&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
and tried it myselves and it really feels better.

Haven't played a lot since then but it really does feel better.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 3:41:34

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

It's a simple mechanical engineering question. A cable of a given tension will
deflect more at a longer length, than it will at a shorter length. You have
effectively lengthened the 6th String and shortened the 4th string. The Nut
is only the end of the cable with regard to the vibratory length. The roller
is the end of the cable with regard to tensile length.

The drawback is that you've likely increased the mechanical force on the
neck since the heavier cable has more of a lever to pull on now :)

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 6:28:51

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to n85ae)

Do I understand it correct if i say that the 6th string have more thension now?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 9:43:39

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

It would have the same tension, however the string will deflect more.

The length of the vibrating section, and the tension determine the pitch
BUT the tensile length (from bridge, to roller) will have an effect on how
much the string deflects when you pluck it. It's more complicated that just
that, but that's why when you change the strings roller it probably feels
slightly different.

Totally confused now?

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 10:41:30

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to n85ae)

So, you have more buzz on the 6th string with this way if stringing?
What about the brake angle from the 6th string, it is way less this way...

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 11:17:14

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

I'm not a luthier, but I think the break angle really applies to the bridge, and
that would stay the same. The saddle top and string tiepoint, form a little
triangle with the soundboard. Which tranfers vibrations from the string into
the soundboard. The string angle across the Nut I wouldn't think would have
as much effect as that across the saddle.

The sharper the string bends across bridge, the more leverage it has to flex
the soundboard.

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 11:59:57

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to n85ae)

quote:

It would have the same tension, however the string will deflect more.

The length of the vibrating section, and the tension determine the pitch
BUT the tensile length (from bridge, to roller) will have an effect on how
much the string deflects when you pluck it.

what do you mean by deflect? i would figure that since the nut is there, anything that happens behind it would have no significant effect.

i think it looks kind of silly. kinda makes it look a noob changed my strings. but i guess you cant knock something until you try it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 22:34:39

gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

what do you mean by deflect? i would figure that since the nut is there, anything that happens behind it would have no significant effect.

Note that the nut restricts the string movement in the direction perpendicular to the string, but not in the direction tangent to it. Meaning the nut only holds the string for vibrations, the nut doesn't do anything to the tension force which runs along the string, it's the roller that works against that.

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Guy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 23:30:41

Graham_B

Posts: 283
Joined: Jul. 10 2007
From: Leigh, Lancashire, UK

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

I've just re-strung Louis' C3F in this configuration.

Looked at from above the nut the 6th string certainly has a straighter run over the nut, but the 4th string now has more of a angled run than before to meet the roller.

I also filed the nut slightly for the 4th string to take into account the steeper angle of the string down from the nut to the roller.

I agree it looks strange, and I'm not convinced there will be an appreciable difference, but we shall see

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 23:55:57

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to Graham_B)

quote:

but the 4th string now has more of a angled run than before to meet the roller

You've gotta wrap the D string to the side of the roller, so it will
have a straight run from nut to roller.

Takes a little stringing savy, but it can be done. :)

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2009 4:31:06

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to n85ae)

My gut feeling is that any change in deflection would be negligible.

Also, although the tensile length is goverened by the fixed length of the string and not by the nut, (or theoretically, the bridge too), when using a capo, quite often the tension from capo to bridge is different to that from capo to roller.
(Hence players will 'fine tune' by pushing or pulling the string in front of, or behind the capo.

So what would the 'tensile length' be in that case?
And would the deflection properties change in that case?

Discuss the mathematical theorems involved.
Please use both sides of the paper and show your workings in the margin.
An invigilator will be present should you require more paper or a pen.
You have 2.00 hours, after which you are required to stop writing and your papers will be collected by a member of staff.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2009 10:06:46

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

Just get a weight, and a fishing scale and hang it from the sting at the midpoint
the measure the deflection. Compare using the different rollers.
That's the simplest way.

Now that being said, I'm NOT an advocate of the idea, I just happen to work
with cables, and cable tensions in airplanes, so I know a little about the
subject.

I'm happy with my guitar's in normal configuration.

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2009 11:07:40

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to n85ae)

Even a placebo effect is worth it.

Besides the way of stringing and wrapping I discovered that the strings can be effectively cleaned using a polishing cloth with some furniture cleaner (the one with orange peel oil).
The cleaner is not lubricating like soap but degreases the string quickly.
You will notice a loud squeaking sound when the string is clean.
They sound fresh and brilliant afterwards.

I'm an orange oil furniture cleaner fan!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2009 11:57:36

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Discuss the mathematical theorems involved.
Please use both sides of the paper and show your workings in the margin.
An invigilator will be present should you require more paper or a pen.
You have 2.00 hours, after which you are required to stop writing and your papers will be collected by a member of staff.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2009 6:51:09

bugeyed

Posts: 56
Joined: Aug. 24 2009
From: Conroe, Texas

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

n85ae wrote
"It's a simple mechanical engineering question. A cable of a given tension will
deflect more at a longer length, than it will at a shorter length. You have
effectively lengthened the 6th String and shortened the 4th string."

Problem here, as I see it, is that we are not talking about a "given tension". For a given string diameter, a longer string requires a higher tension to tune to a given pitch. Seems to me that the 6th string would be tighter & the 4th looser. Isn't that right if we consider the string length from bridge to roller or do we use the distance from saddle to nut in this exercise?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2009 11:22:47

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

I hate to resurrect this old thread, but does anyone use this technique of placing the low E string on the D peg?

Or have the techniques of R. Diaz lost all credibility

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2011 0:53:55

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

On the topic of Ruben, I went down to Toronto yesterday to visit him. Hes actually a really nice person and the Andalusian guitars are actually really good compared to the Alhambra 10, 7f and the Rodriguez (sp) that I tried out around Toronto. For the price he quoted me on one I am considering buying one off him. He helped me with my budget too.

They also feel really good, and deffinitly kicks the ass out of my 700 dollar la patrie classical which I still love

His camera does shame to the guitars on youtube, they sound much much much better in person.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2011 1:02:13

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

Hes actually a really nice person and the Andalusian guitars are actually really good

cRobson12,

Run for your life!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2011 1:06:41

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

I am actually being serious here Cuerdas :P For those 10,000+ prices I see online is insanity. But they are good for the 1000 dollar price range

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2011 1:08:27

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

I should have specified,

I am asking you all please simply whether you have tried stringing the low E to the D.

I want to resurrect the thread, not the ghost of R.D. on this forum!

Good one CuerdasDulces though

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2011 1:09:35

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to Harry)

Haha sorry Henry. I am going to make this a thread, hopefully it doesn't get trolled too much.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2011 1:12:42

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to cRobson12)

But have you tried the alternate stringing method? I am always curious about ways of stringing the guitar.

In terms of guitars and all, I am also a firm believer that you can get a great guitar that sounds very flamenco for 1000$. We can't all have Condes that cost as much as a car.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2011 1:28:39

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

* steps back about 20,000 paces from thread. *

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2011 6:01:15

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to estebanana)

Perhaps I will stick to the traditional stringing method.
However, the damage is done hehe.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2011 14:56:03

Bman

Posts: 6
Joined: Sep. 30 2010

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)

Actually I was watching some video on La Sonanta I believe and I could swear it was this R. Diaz guy showing that this was NOT the way to string your guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2011 3:34:31

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to Bman)

That would not surprise me at this point! but I guess it's always best in these matters to see what the real pros do. These are people who devote hours to their playing and improving their sound I imagine, and I have never seen or heard of anyone stringing the guitar up like this. So, I suppose it is probably not that significant a difference in sound and feel. Still, I was curious, but no one had much to say about this.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2011 3:39:16