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El Nino Miguel!!!
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Ricardo
Posts: 15142
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: El Nino Miguel!!! (in reply to M.S.A.)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: M.S.A.
quote:
his style is a copy of paco's starting back early 70's
- this is based on what kind of reasoned assumption?
Well my ear. I mean it is my opinion, and it stands out glaringly obvious to me, but I only have my own point of view you know. I disagree that Paco sounded like such a n. ricardo/sabicas copy on his first 2 albums. Even he interprets Ramon Montoya's rondena or Escudero's Impetu with his own easy to recognize style. When it comes to cante, most singers admit full out to be a copy of a certain style. (Caracolero or Camaronero etc) But with guitar everyone seems to think it is so bad, but it is fine too IMO.
PDL took a lot from Paco Cepero who was his friend, and everyone he was hanging with I am sure. I can hear it, it is obvious too. Even Cepero tried out some of PDL's things himself, but doesn't mean you should say Cepero is so heavy influenced by PDL. He just liked to quote and borrow melodies but with his own style. That is how great artists influence each other. I dont' mean to take anything away from N. Miguel, but to my ear he was going full out trying to do the same as Paco, right down to his arrangements with other instruments, not just his falsetas and way to do compas. I dont think it is a bad thing, but to claim Paco was copying him doesnt really make sense to me. Even if there was a specific falseta Paco plays of N. Miguel, overall style wise (Like what I mentioned with Cepero) the heavy influence of PDL on N. Miguel is really obviouse to me, as a fan of both players.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 11 2009 11:48:01
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Ricardo
Posts: 15142
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: El Nino Miguel!!! (in reply to M.S.A.)
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quote:
Ricardo,
no complicated analysys are necessary to grasp a single and very simple thing.
Ooops sorry man, you asked me though.
quote:
What I was saying, Miguel's "Recuerdo de la Virgen del Rocío" released 1975 and Cobre of PDL released 1976 - a year later - leaves no doubts... but I really don't know how can anybody copy someone else before original has been recorded.
Well, other than that they are both sevillanas, I don't hear the direct connection of the two pieces. They have different tonalities and melodies. Perhaps you could point us to specific passage that is identical of the two, cuz I don't notice any. Stylistically they are similar, but I was pointing out that perhaps you hear the two pieces as being so similar because N. Miguel was already on the PDL path for years. Also, when it comes to flamenco recordings, date of release is not always the best sign of date of authorship. Paco performs a lot of music live that might get recorded later, or perhaps he has recorded and saved it up as happened with Cositas Buenas, or even you might hear things live that have NEVER been recorded.
About there being no true creation, I must say there is a big difference between copying an idea, or borrowing an idea, and being inspired by an idea. Also if two independant sources are inspired by a single thing, say a tuning or special tonality, it is quite possible that the two will "create" something quite similar, coincidentally. This has happened alot with modern flamenco players, but it is still creativity IMO, just the source of inspiration was the same, not that they copied each other.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 12 2009 9:45:59
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antoniobrandao
Posts: 24
Joined: Dec. 23 2009
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RE: El Nino Miguel!!! (in reply to M.S.A.)
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I disagree with Ricardo.
Nino was not trying to copy Paco 70´s style. He was trying to overtake him. Like a car race. Of what use would it be just to copy?
If you understand anything about Flamenco guitar playing, you must recognize that there is a remarkable difference in their buleria styles. Always have been. Nino had the gypsy style of his family and Paco of his familiy and his teachers (Nino Ricardo and Sabicas) together. Paco has tendency of making surprising starts and stops, and also applying striking picados that stand out of the rest of the music. Nino has more of a constant, continuous "angry" flow ("without the starts and stops") and makes picados that instead of standing out of the rest, they fill in to the music composition, creating a smoother curve in the audio spectrum of the song.
Forget the strings and arrangements of other instruments. It was a rising trend and they did it a lot in that studio, where both Paco and Nino recorded their albums at the time. Actually it was the same man who made those strings and arrangements for them both: José Torregrosa.
There are rumours that Paco the Lucia stole Almoraina and Entre dos Rios from Nino and renamed them to Almoraima and Entre dos Aguas.
But those are rumours, so better forget about them.
Paco was innovative almost since the beggining. "El Tempul" recorded in 1969 was already innovative. Cepa Andaluza was also very innovative but both conserved some "classic" elements of buleria.
Then came Vinos Y Caballos by Nino Miguel, the first to bring it all together and add a lot on top. An amazingly well played buleria full of innovative chords, harmonies, and synchopation. When it came out it redefined the futurism in Bulerias. Paco obviously liked this song very much and learned from it, like any intelligent flamenco guitarist should do. It is not copying, it is learning the Palo.
Nowadays I still believe Vinos & Caballos is the best and most outstanding buleria ever recorded. Almoraima also stands out, but compared to Vinos Y Caballos, it's a Pop Song. Very catchy, repeating parts, many parts are easy to play.
Has anyone ever seen anyone playing Vinos Y Caballos ? Properly ? I'd love to see that, honestly.
Some people were talking about the Sevillanas? Are you guys crazy? There are no Sevillanas like "Recuerdos de la Virgen del Rocio". Actually if this song is a Sevillanas, than it is the only Sevillana in the World. This song makes all the other Sevillanas sound like primitive music, poorly played. It's ridiculous to listen to another Sevillana after listening Recuerdos de la Virgen del Rocio. It has so much power, emotion and colour that any other Sevillana becomes funeral music.
greetings
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quod in omni vita facimus, in aeternum resonat
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Date Jul. 23 2011 3:47:32
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