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I just saw this Solea por Bulerias video and Chicuelo is tapping in 2s there...
I remember when i started with 2s in Bulerias it helped me alot. But in Solea it somehow doesnt workout for the beats 12 to 5. Sometimes i do 12 AND 2 3, and i also mix between 6 8 10 and 7 8 10. What are your thoughts? Did someone try out the tapping in 2s for the Solea styles?
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to XXX)
I've seen modern players tap with their feet on the even beats in cantinyas (alegrías), but I've never liked that for soleá, because IMO it's important to maintain some differences between soleá and cantiñas. Although, in this case, it's a fast soleá (not bulería por soleá or whatever you want to call it because all the singing is straight soleá, except for the third cante), and at that speed the aire is really similar anyway. But it sounds great, and that's all that matters.
Notice that at about 2:08, Chicuelo doesn't come crashing in with the cambio. It's so easy to get heavy-handed when the singer starts stirring up some excitement.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to XXX)
That's Chicuelo's way; when I saw him perform (with Poveda) he tapped his foot the same way through the whole concert, every palo looks like 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to Ron.M)
He switches between different versions. Sometimes he taps every beat. But im sure i saw him doing the tapping in 2s, which was my main interest, because i am kind of interested in that.
Norman... thanks i somehow guessed that it was solea cante, but i couldnt tell it in words why. On guitar i hear the term Solea por Bulerias more often than any other of its pendants, so thats why i choose to call it that way. I dont know exactly what the difference in cante is between solea and Sol p B, maybe you could comment on that?
edit... the foro seems extremely unavailable.. anyone else experience the same???
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to XXX)
quote:
He switches between different versions. Sometimes he taps every beat. But im sure i saw him doing the tapping in 2s, which was my main interest, because i am kind of interested in that.
My opinion Deniz is that NO good Flamenco guitarist depends on patterns of tapping the foot.
It's ALL in the HAND and the MIND IMO
Foot tapping is a secondary thing, like you tap your foot to a record of a pop tune or anything...
In Flamenco, you'll find that EVEN LISTENING, you won't tap your foot the same way throughout a whole piece or song, as phrasing and emphasis changes etc
So what makes you think that these guys DO?
These guys don't have any "secret" foot tap methods or anything to keep them in time....
They just KNOW what they are doing...in their head and right hand.
This "complicated timing" thing is just perpetrating the "myth of flamenco rhythm" IMO.
(And it certainly sounds that way if you don't know it)
That's why I believe Estevan's personal observation of Chicuelo basically just tapping 1,1,1,1,1,1,.... to be correct!
In fact ALL rhythmical music is based on 1,1,1,1,1....
It just depends how you hear it in your head.
I've had the same experience in watching really good Flamenco players.
They certainly DON'T depend on any tapping patterns.
That video of PdL doing that tap-tap-----tap-tap Bulerias throughout is unique , but all the foreigners have jumped on it as being some sort of secret from the master as to "How to play Flamenco Guitar"....
It's not IMO.
cheers,
Ron
PS: And yes....the Forum is muito slow at the moment!
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
That video of PdL doing that tap-tap-----tap-tap Bulerias throughout is unique , but all the foreigners have jumped on it as being some sort of secret from the master.
Did they? That's funny! (maybe he was testing to see who would copy it.. )
And he usually changes his tapping pattern several times during a piece, if it's bulerias or sol x bul. I like it when he really gets going and switches to the footstool so he can stamp his foot with a big movement. He's probably trying to restore the circulation in his leg, as much as anything musical.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
These guys don't have any "secret" foot tap methods or anything to keep them in time....
LooooooL Ron, dont tell me that! I fear my post might have sounded that way, but that wasnt my intention. I was just trying to get some opinions, experiences with this or other tapping styles por Solea. I hope thats ok? lol... when i wrote my last post, i thought about including a line "im not seaking for a secret tapping method, Ron". I guess i should have done it :) i seem to have a good intuition, haha.
quote:
That video of PdL doing that tap-tap-----tap-tap Bulerias throughout is unique , but all the foreigners have jumped on it as being some sort of secret from the master as to "How to play Flamenco Guitar"....
Well, i did not, and i wouldnt recommend it to anybody to learn first, because i find it very hard to do. It fits more the old compas anyway. And as i see i was wrong with the Chicuelo vid. He doesnt use the tapping in 2s.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to XXX)
Hi Deniz,
The name really isn't that important because everybody will understand no matter how you say it: bulería por soleá, soleá por bulería, bulería para escuchar, soleabulería... A long time ago, people just said bulerías. The melodies of these styles come from bulerías (por=in the mode of) and are different from the melodies used in straight soleá. Also, because of the slightly faster pace, you can stretch and link the lines of verse a little more than is usually possible in straight soleá.
If you look enough, you can find examples of the "real bulería" counterparts of the styles of bulería por soleá, especially the bulería corta (see bps page). Everyone sings that one in both styles.
There should be threads on the subject in the forum archives.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to XXX)
You can solve the whole problem in the first place by not tapping at all. The compas has to be in your head and your hands. Apart from practicing a lot, the best thing you can do is listen to an enormous amount of recorded flamenco guitar, preferably from the old days. Feel the compas as you listen, and it will work its way inside you. But tapping is not a good idea. An old time flamenco guitarist once said, "Watch someone tapping his foot – he will lose the compas before he is halfway through."
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
That video of PdL doing that tap-tap-----tap-tap Bulerias throughout is unique , but all the foreigners have jumped on it as being some sort of secret from the master as to "How to play Flamenco Guitar"....
paco is not the only one, i have video of tomatito and moraito (and maybe more if i check, but definately those) tapping that same pattern.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
But tapping is not a good idea. An old time flamenco guitarist once said, "Watch someone tapping his foot – he will lose the compas before he is halfway through."
Yeah, that's the old funny (****) quote that's always dragged out by folk from time-to-time.
Heard it before. Read the book.
From some obscure one-toothed guitarrista in one of Pohren's books...and which was written for sale to a naive American audience, who were desperate to know "the hidden secrets" of Flamenco from a guru who had "actually travelled" outwith the US.
IMO, it's true to only a very limited extent .ie when someone has to mark out every salient beat of the compás to keep in time, which is ridiculous....only absolute beginners do this when being taught by bad teachers.
Basically this is just a worthless piece of sensationalist and journalistic crap in order to maintain the so-called "mystique" of Flamenco rhythm in an American 60's society IMO.
The actual compás is felt in the head and the hands, sure.. but everybody taps their foot to at least a steady beat, which may vary according to how they feel they phrase. It's only natural.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to mrMagenta)
Thanks, mrMagenta!
Nearly everyone taps a foot. Obviously, it shouldn't be so loud that it gets in the way, especially when accompanying singing. But sometimes it's the only way to keep the singer on course.
A couple of years ago, I saw Moraíto onstage with José Mercé. During the bulería, he tapped both ways: 12-2-4-6-8-10 and 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11.
Is it felt in the brain or in the body or both? Remember, we're talking about the perception of the passing of time (rhythm). I think it's in the brain, but it doesn't work as well when you make a conscious effort to focus on it. Kind of like using peripheral vision to detect movement when hunting.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
Is it felt in the brain or in the body or both?
that's a really really good question, and one i have thought about a lot and done some investigation into....
and this is a really good point to make;
quote:
Remember, we're talking about the perception of the passing of time (rhythm
another point i want to make is, what do we mean by "feel"? and just how do we "feel" a rhythm? is it the same as feeling ill, or feeling someone pinching your arm, or feeling your way round the house in the dark, or feeling happy or sad, or feeling like a beer or a chocolate bar, or feeling moved by music, or feeling that someone does or doesn't like you?
these all involving perceptions using the senses, and they are all interpreted in the brain from information supplied by the nervous system (from the senses).
sometimes it seems to me that people think "feeling a rhythm" means making regular repetitive contractions of muscles in the body at timed intervals decided by the brain, and which will then generate proprioceptive (ie sensing yourself) feedback that tells you what those rhythmic contractions (and alternate relaxations) feel like.
the point here is that if you literally feel a rhythm in the body it is only by making your body move to that rhythm, and the movement is directed by the brain...
BUT that is not necessarily the same as "rationalising" or analysing or counting, what it means is that there has to be some kind of sense of the rhythmic intervals to the extent that you predict and continue them (and can then choose to move feet or hands or whatever in time to them) - i don't think this sense of rhythm is "in the body" or "in the head" as we commonly understand those things
i also think it is a mistake to overly separate the so-called "mental" from the so-called "physical" because i think the separation is a bit artificial, i think they are a lot more overlapping in reality than talking about them as separate things implies
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to Ron.M)
If you bet that I tap my feet, you have lost your bet. Not only do I not tap, but in fact I have never once tapped in my entire career, not as a student, not as a performer. As it happens, this was not by design, or some conscious decision – it just never occurred to me to tap. Probably a long time ago I "tapped" in my head as I felt the compas, but that's not the same as tapping with your foot. And with all due respect I can't agree with your assertion that "everybody taps their foot." I have seen countless guitarists in person and on film and video who did not tap their feet. Nor did I ever see my teacher, Mario Escudero, ever tap his feet. I honestly can't see any reason for it. We have all listened to a great deal of flamenco – at some point you just begin to feel it in your body, and it comes out through your hands.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to Ramon Amira)
Would love to hear some of your stuff P.C. You sound a very experienced guy!
Upload a video of a good rhythmic number to either here or YouTube.
We'd all be interested in seeing you play!
Just a cheap Webcam will do if you don't have a camera.
Oh...play that Contreras that Sabicas liked, just so we can get the general sound of it too!
cheers,
Ron
BTW...It's real easy to upload in the "Audio/Video Uploads" section. Just record something, say in Windows Moviemaker or something and make a post in that section. Click on "Click Here to Upload " to upload your stuff and it will appear as an attachment.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to Ron.M)
Thanks Ron. I will be happy to do that. However, it may take a while – I'm somewhat tech challenged, and also I'm in the process of writing a method for classical guitar, and what with my teaching schedule, I don't have a lot of spare time just now. But I promise I will whenever I can find the time. Or I may try to just do a quick audio and upload that if I can figure out how.
Anyway, I'm very happy to have found this forum, with so many guitarists really knowledgeable about flamenco. Soon I will try to offer some of my ideas for improving technique.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to XXX)
Pie (as in Spanish for foot, not the delicious dessert ) is now more important than ever in Flamenco. In fact it is taught and practiced by most professionals as a completely essential element of flamenco like palmas.
I have no doubt that 50 years ago, Mario Escudero and other other "old time" flamenco masters may have discouraged it (but I can't figure out exactly why?).
But flamenco is very different nowadays, specifically it is much more rhythmically complex. And failing to use any external expression of time is almost sure to get you lost. Of course if you're doing a solo Solea or something, foot tapping is not required (although again it can't hurt), but if you're going to work with dancers or any kind of group you're going to have to deal with extreme syncopation, tempo changes, pre-specified spaces in which you don't play. All of which is way easier to pull off if you keep time externally. Same reason why singers do palmas while they're singing or between verses... to get inside the rhythm.
It actually is something that needs to be learned..I'm still struggling with it...it's certainly not easy to do all the time, a lot like rubbing your tummy and patting your head.
Edit.. To get a little more back on topic, I was taught in Solea to tap the accents.. 3,6,8,10,12. Or for SpB 3,7,8,10,12. It's very true that most people's foot patterns will change throughout a performance, especially in Bulerias, and equally that everyone's are different.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to XXX)
It might be in the brain, but the brain is not all in the head. :P I heard some neuro-scientist argue for including the spinal cord and extended nervous system into what we call the brain, and perhaps there's something to it.
What Mark writes sounds plausible. In lay mans terms I guess that periodic sensory feedback loop-thing is what we call 'feeling it in the body', doesn't mean we have to act out the signals in big muscle twitches. Might be just as effective at subtle or even invisible levels. When focusing hard on what I'm doing I 'get out of the loop', might not be visible from the outside but I'm sure it's audible. When I catch myself being 'all in the head' everything feels more difficult.
RE: Foot tapping different palos (in reply to mrMagenta)
There's also the groaning thing..a lot of high level players seem to do it as a rhythmic tool. Personally I can't stand it but...whatever floats your compas boat.
I just recently noticed that Paco does it a lot, especially on "Luzia"
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