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RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
is it cool to revive old threads? i have had a period off foro (away from home, then came back to pc problems...), but have another question about this;
when i have played around with these patterns with other people, they seem to "automatically" accent 5 when asked to clap x, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, accenting 1 and 3, but i assume this is wrong/not typical?
next question, from listening to palmas on cd's especially buleria a palo seco, people assume the pattern is x, 1, &, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. with the result that the off beat is out or the following beat is out, 'cos it's too fast for them - i don't try to put the off beat in as well as the beats 'cos i assume someone else is doing the off beats, as well as sounding the 12/6 that i can often hear?
last question, what is the equivalent in tangos? i assume that it's x, 2, 3, 4,? does the same issue apply re the off beat between 2 and 3?
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to mark indigo)
Tangos is usually slow enough to pull that off, but when its on the fast side it would be the thing to do. Nice observation.
I think the key to much of this is listening to what is actually going on in the music instead of always listening to what a book or a teacher says and taking that to heart without further investigation.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
Jason, that was a very cool and informative video that explained in 5 minutes what would have taken many pages of thread. I totally agree with the points you made. Students outside of Spain get very involved with analysing the palmas whereas actually in everyday settings, this stuff isnt studied. People just feel the rhythm and do it. Your comments matched my own observations here that 1. People dont count palmas 2. Bulerias is generally played in 6's 3. Palmas follows the cante and it doesnt matter if there is an extra "half compas" 4. Most people play the basé with only a couple of palmeros doing the tricky stuff.
I also agree that the waltz rhythm is necessary on very fast buleria but actually it was probably always thought of in 6's.
I would add that there are several regional variations to the basé from Granada to Jerez to Cadiz etc. In Granada one commonly hears the basé as follows:
(The rest strokes are tapped with the foot. Notice the accent is changed in the second group of 6)
Im going to load some audio examples of gypsies practicing palmas in the Eshavira in the audio section
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From: Washington DC
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Gummy)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gummy
WOw. Awesome tutorial video. Thanks so much for posting that! People here have been asking for basic palmas guidance for a long time. FOr some reason, nobody until now has done it.
I remember a post from RIcardo awhile back where he said he hates it when somebody plays palmas on the 3 6 8 10 accents and said he prefers them to play just what you showed.
Thanks to god mcguire joined so I don't have to keep posting the same thing over and over....going back through the archives is now a pain in the butt!
Just like to add, perhaps the reason half compas and jerez are associated is because old guys like Manuel Morao, parilla, etc would do the remate for cante (after the C7-F they do B-A and start the next phrase as we think of 12), like EVERY time. So every time they sang a short letra there was an odd 6 of the guitar, rather than the typical 7-10 filler of rasgueado on A. Just an idea, but it is common everywhere.
Although maybe PDL taught it to them? JK
Also, this half compas phrasing thing can happen in guitar falsetas of Bulerias too, and even some Alegria or Solea will have it. Norman found tons of examples of Bulerias por Solea where it happens for cante accomp too. So I think the basic point is that the rhythm has always been fundamentally 6, and the dancers like to square off the phrasing all the time by counting out to 12. Same happens for Tangos when they count to 8 for a phrase.
Good point about whoever noticed Tangos had a similar palmas phrasing of up beats, but with 4's instead of 6's. Also the 12,3,7,8,10 is a base line pattern one might accent with cajon or foot tap when doing some other palmas pattern. I actually consider the foot a really important part of doing palmas, not just something you can do if you want or not. It really helps the feel for all the performers.
At Jason, I wonder if Felix remembers when he dug a hole in to the stage with heel of this flamenco shoe, just from doing the base foot with the palmas for 2 shows!
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Ricardo)
Foot on the floor is cool if done well. If not, its better for it not to be there at all and some rely on it too much to keep tempo. You should be able to keep steady with or without the foot on the floor. There are many situations where if someone is putting their foot on the floor it can ruin the intention of the leading element. For example if you are trying to get an anticipated feel by accenting the contratiempo after 11 and someone hits the floor hard on 12 it will completely change the intention. It may still sound good if its in time, but it will have a completely different feel.
The only way Felix would remember that is if someone sent him a bill for the repair.
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RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
Just like to add, perhaps the reason half compas and jerez are associated is because old guys like Manuel Morao, parilla, etc would do the remate for cante (after the C7-F they do B-A and start the next phrase as we think of 12), like EVERY time. So every time they sang a short letra there was an odd 6 of the guitar, rather than the typical 7-10 filler of rasgueado on A. Just an idea, but it is common everywhere.
Thank you Ricardo.
Understanding they "why" of things is just as important as the "how" for me.
BTW: Great thread, this is the sort of stuff that makes this place such a tremendous resource. Thanks to the people with the answers... and the right questions.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
Great thread redux on this subject. I have argued for years that you could extend this to transcription of flamenco for guitar as well. Writing down bulerias in 3/4 or 12/4 is wrong simply because it doesn't accurately reflect the rhythmic pulse of the music which is 6/8. By definition western written music places the underlying accent or pulse at the beginning of the measure. This is simply to make it easier to perform. That's it. When the accents are placed just before the bar like most transcriptions, I feel the reader is placed at a disadvantage when facing these transcriptions. Because you cant READ the accents like all other "western" music. This in addition the fact that most students of flamenco transcriptions did not grow-up in a natural flamenco environment and thus need all the help they can get in learning the pulse! That coupled with the subject of this thread and you can see why these questions are repeated over an over.
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RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Trev)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Trev
Great thread redux on this subject. I have argued for years that you could extend this to transcription of flamenco for guitar as well. Writing down bulerias in 3/4 or 12/4 is wrong simply because it doesn't accurately reflect the rhythmic pulse of the music which is 6/8. By definition western written music places the underlying accent or pulse at the beginning of the measure. This is simply to make it easier to perform. That's it. When the accents are placed just before the bar like most transcriptions, I feel the reader is placed at a disadvantage when facing these transcriptions. Because you cant READ the accents like all other "western" music. This in addition the fact that most students of flamenco transcriptions did not grow-up in a natural flamenco environment and thus need all the help they can get in learning the pulse! That coupled with the subject of this thread and you can see why these questions are repeated over an over.
Well it is not always 6/8, but true the way it is written should reflect the FEEL, which can and often does change (and typically does not on paper). Without bring back the old thread, it must also be understood the connection of Bulerias to Solea, in the case mostly of baile accompaniment. More than anything it is those darn escobilla sections that have wierd changing feels, though the simple math of 12 holds it all together.
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RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
I'm really sorry about bumping this thread a year and two months and you can delete it if you think it's that big a deal. But I've found this really interesting article to add to what Jason has said, it only reinforces what he said.
BTW Jason, thanks for the video, made a lot of sense thanks!
BTW I've got a question. I know after reading your thread I'm not supposed to, but I counted and from the beginning if you keep going with the 12 beat which now has been declared almost illegal by Jason (which I will change from now on, I'm happy you mentioned it btw thanks alot)
Can you explain what is going on when if you keep counting it goes off the 12 beat, I think they added a six beat, but because I'm such a giri, when I counted it went up to 4 and I thought it was just me, but I've done it multiple times, and with other bulerias.
Here's one of the links!
Great video btw, I wish there were more on youtube, besides the ones by Tao Ruspoli.
If you can answer my question, that'd be awesome! Thanks!
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to stealthanugrah)
Hi stealthanugrah,
Yes, Bulerias does that all the time.
A lot of the time the singer will extend a passage by six beats or a guitarist will extend a falseta by six beats so that the expected "3" beat comes in on "9".
The fundamenal beat of Bulerias is in 6's not 12's so it's easy to fall in to and not incorrect.
The 12 beat thing is just a learning device taken from the fact that you probably know Soleares or Alegrias, but in practice it's a lot looser than that.
Both halves of the 12 beat compás can be regarded as symmetrical.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to stealthanugrah)
quote:
ORIGINAL: stealthanugrah Can you explain what is going on when if you keep counting it goes off the 12 beat
You can count it as one or multiple extra 6 8 10 (2s feel) or 12 3 (3s feel), if you wished to preserve the 12 count. If you count with your foot in 2s its just an extra count of 3 stomps. edit: as i see Jose Tanaka answers every question one could possibly have about this issue.
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RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
Well he adds it I think in the first falseta at around 1:00, but yeah I guess he added that in himself because from reading they usually do that before a letra or something like that.
Also around 3:55 to around 4:00, is that another example of Media Compas, or is the singer just stopping the guitar player before a 6 comes up so he can sing?
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From: Washington DC
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to stealthanugrah)
quote:
ORIGINAL: stealthanugrah
My question is, how do you know when it's going to happen? Or should I just search in the forum rather than bother you?
lols I gave you the articles but I didn't read it clearly myself, hypocritical bum I am,
anyways, thanks! This is great!
Depends on the situation. A singer might extend so you should not resolve before him/her, or you may have to resolve twice. It is all about that, resolving with the singer. Of course the guitar might do a half compas in a falseta etc, but when accompanying, if you do a half compas on guitar most likely everyone responds to it that knows compas, singers dancers palmas cajon whatever. The singer only "does" a half compas when extending what would be a "normal" length phrase. Could be several half compas extensions add up to an even number and some nerds can say it is 12 but are missing the point.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to stealthanugrah)
quote:
Well he adds it I think in the first falseta at around 1:00, but yeah I guess he added that in himself because from reading they usually do that before a letra or something like that.
i think that is more complicated than the situation really is.
the falseta 0:40 - 1:00 has some phrases that are maybe more obviously twelves, and then it has some phrases of sixes towards the end. It doesn't matter if there are an odd or even number of sixes, listen to the palmas throughout, they are not doing "twelves"!
If you clap or count in twelves you will think it's "out" (or that they "put in" a medio compas), but listen to the palmas in the vid, noone claps in 12's, so it's just a natural thing. Clap or tap your foot every other beat (12, 2, 4), or two out of three (1, 2, 4, 5) and the "problem" disappears!
quote:
Also around 3:55 to around 4:00, is that another example of Media Compas, or is the singer just stopping the guitar player before a 6 comes up so he can sing?
i think the guitar is just playing some compas.... i think they are just variations on the compas.
try watching the vid again, this time listen more to the palmas etc., that is the base rhythm.
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