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RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar   You are logged in as Guest
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Ricardo

Posts: 12994
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

My turn!!!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 0:54:02
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Fu***kin doooooooooope!!!!!!

Did you feel the electricity of history corse through your hands??? That's crazy.........

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 0:58:12
 
RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

That is awesome, Ricardo. It appears that you were at R. Brune place, can you please tell us of your experience there please.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 1:54:33
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1756
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

lucky devil.....seems to be a great guitar :-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 14:33:31
 
rickm

 

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

that sure looks like brunes shop hope you had fun take care
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 14:46:07
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1616
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Wow, Ricardo,

Liked it a lot, deeply touched by the expression of the music.
You have a way of "painting" a piece.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 14:54:34
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Good playing there Ricardo!

could you please tell this guy next time, it´s time to preserve that guitar as part of culture and history. It belongs to a museum god damnit!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 17:34:08
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

My turn!!!


Can I ask you, just how it felt to be playing that guitar?

Did it feel similar to a modern guitar? Harder/softer action? Response? Sound? Whatever?

Really interested to kow how you personally felt when playing it?

I have always been a great admirer of Don Ramon. And I still feel that no one since has quite come up to his level of interpretation of flamenco music on the guitar. . .

May be old-fashioned, but - everyone's entitled to an opinion. . .

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 0:31:41
 
rickm

 

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

brunes shop is a bit of a museum you should see it
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 0:33:04
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

so it's an esteso?

how does it compare to other contemporary brand/makers?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 6:48:58
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Doitsujin

Good playing there Ricardo!

could you please tell this guy next time, it´s time to preserve that guitar as part of culture and history. It belongs to a museum god damnit!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Apparently you missed Richard Brune's comments via Tom Blackshear. I took it upon myself to cut and paste them, hope neither gentlemen mind.


I think you should be aware of the way Brune feels although he does not have much time to be on chat lists, which I can understand since he is a slave to guitar orders that just won't quit.

1. The guitar is a 1923 Domingo Esteso ex collection of Luis Maravilla,
which I legitimately own. I don't know why someone said "no one" owns
it, unless this was intended as an insult. If it was supposed to be
humor, I'll gladly forward a $5 bill for humor lessons if they are
courageous enough to give me their actual name and address.

2. I have previously published articles about this guitar and its
history in Guitar Player Magazine, August 1988, page 22, and Vintage
Guitar Magazine, July 2004, pages 68-72. If any foro member wishes to
contact me directly with their actual name and email, I'll be happy to
email copies of either or both articles at no charge. They can contact
me through my web site. Over the past 40 + years I have tried to make
as much of my collection and archival material as possible available to
others through my published articles, and contributions to other
author's works, most done for little or no compensation. I do this out
of my aficion for the instrument.

3. The guitar is hardly hidden away "in the middle of nowhere" as one
writer put it, as Evanston is right next to Chicago, Illinois, a city of
some world wide notoriety. It has been played and admired by artists
such as Paco Peña, Pepe Romero, Eliot Fisk, Tomas de Utrera, Paco Fonta,
and many others. It is available to any aficionados who visit my shop
to see, play and study, as are the many other instruments also in my
collection.

4. Anyone who feels strongly enough that this guitar should be in a
museum in Spain is welcome to make me an offer I can't refuse and in
turn, donate the guitar to the museum of their choice in Spain.
Otherwise, they should study the concept of private property as set
forth in the U.S. Constitution. Right now the guitar currently IS in a
museum, the Bruné Museum, which I daresay is probably under better
storage, security and humidity control than just about any museum in the
world. I understand as well as anyone in Spain the significance of this
and all the instruments and archival material in my collection, and I
intend to preserve this for future generations to study, love and
appreciate as I have.

And I might add that Brune has the expert skills to keep the guitar in its restored value and material conditioning. Any museum would have to depend on an expert restoration artist, like Brune, to be able to keep the instrument in its best condition.



I think you ought to just let this ridiculous beef of yours drop. Richard is quite open and sharing and has been for the entirety of his career. Most luthiers and aficionados who have any knowledge of the history of the Spanish guitar owe a considerable debt to the man. Granted he has done well by doing good but he could have just as easily done well by keeping all this to himself. He has stated for the record that his collection is available to any aficionado who cares to visit, what more do you want? Try getting the Met to let you play something in their collection. It can be done but you'll have to jump through more hoops than you can imagine and any lack of credentials will probably sink you along the way. Insofar as your concern for the preservation of the guitar, while there are others who might do as good a job and provide as caring a home, I can't imagine anyone who would do better. So whats your issue?

Now as someone who deals in historic and vintage instruments myself, let me tell you first hand that I do NOT believe that museums constitute the best home for a musical instrument. When I represented Sabicas' 1951 Barbero I had conversations with a few notable museums, an avenue of course which I pursued. My responsibility was first and foremost to the family of Dr. Shultz, my good friend and client. My second responsibility was to the instrument. In the end it was a private collector, who came through with the appropriate offer monetarily and the appropriate home for the preservation of this magnificent piece of history.

Futhermore, it is hardly professional players who provide the best home for guitars, from a viewpoint of preservation. There are exceptions of course but the demands of a gigging and touring musician do not provide much of a chance for an instrument to remain unscathed. The 1931 Simplicio I represented (ex Rey de la Torre) is a classic example of what happens to even the best of guitars being used by international virtuoso. These older guitars are of course wonderful instruments, historic icons and such but being retired from active service as it were, opens up the market for younger makers who, just might be building guitars every bit as good. Something to consider, as well as how lucky guitarists today are to have so many great builders offering fine instruments at very affordable (relative to historic guitar or just about any other musical instrument) prices.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 13:03:16
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Doitsujin is right, the culture and history has nothing to do with the music or the voice this guitar makes. This guitar should be put in a coffin of glass, so people can drift past giving it the mere glance it so justly deserves. After the Sabicus Barbero restoration, Mr Brune has proven he can't be trusted. The body world people should have been contracted, they're the real experts on preservation; I know because I saw half a man riding a half horse at the museum.

What's next a straight guy prancing around in Liberace's cape, or Nicolas Cage using one of Elvis's jumpsuits for pajamas? This madness needs to stop god dammit!!!!!!!

The sooner musicians realize that guitars were not put on this planet for their benefit, the better off everyone will be.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 15:25:28
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

I see what you did there

You sounded wonderful on that guitar, Ricardo - would you tell us about some of the other guitars you played? Favorite of the day?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 15:31:52
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1756
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Why should a wonderful guitar be displayed in a museum, together with many other instruments that will never be played again? Isn't it better of in the capable hands of this collector, were it can be enjoyed in it's full glory? Or in the hands of a concert player who plays it a while before handing it over to the next person/generation? The only shame would be if the link with Ramon Montoya would ever be forgotten. Good guitars belong in the hands of a good player and not on a shelf of a museum. Still i hope to persuade my father not to pass his fabulous classical 1962 Jose Ramirez to a young talented classical player, despite the fact he don't like the idea it ends up in the hands of "just a flamenco player not capable to make it sound as good as possible".... i guess i better pick up some classical skills before it comes to that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 19:02:12
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Im sorry everybody who think that guitar, part of human history and culture, should not be preserved for all humans to remember, also in future..but played somewhere nowhere at the ass of the world is a ****ing moron. Dumbasses, idiots. so stupid. (sorry for the hard words..but you don´t deserve better :P) Oh yeah.. now that we are talking about that. I have a Picasso above my toilet. Good for the rest of the world I guess... well well..but I have perfect lights here..nowhere else it could get enjoyed so much as in my restroom.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 19:18:37
 
rickm

 

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

so we really have to swear about it to make a point? buried in a museum or in brunes shop where it can be played by the best players in the world? Preserved yes but where? It was built for one reason, not to be revered as a icon of the past but to be played. So its magic voice would inspire others.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 19:28:55
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Giving a guitar like this to a museum would be a big mistake. It should go to a collector or player who has the means to steward it through history and pass it to another player collector who will do the same.

And if it goes to a collector hopefully someone who does not see it completely as an investment, but as a part of guitar cultural patrimony to be played and shared with everyone who is a player of merit who deserves to be in touch with this instrument.

For twenty years Jasha Hiefitz's Guarneri del Gesu sat in a small glass case backed against a wall next to a drinking fountain. It is one of the most important instruments in history and it was sitting in an undistinguished place in a museum. Now it is played by the concert master of the SF Symphony.

These kinds of instruments should not vanish into glass cases and bank vaults. The two great Strad cellos of the twentieth century cellists Rostropovich the Duport, and Bernard Greenhouse, The Countess of Steinlen have disappeared into unknown private collections possibly never to be heard from again. That is terrible. The Strad cello belonging to Jacquline de Pre, the Davidov was passed to Yo Yo Ma, it continues to be played in public by a great musician.

As it should be. These violins and guitars should be kept in the hands of players not vaults. If a 300 year old cello can still be played in public certainly a 100 year old guitar can be.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 19:39:22
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to rickm

quote:

so we really have to swear about it to make a point?


**** yeah!... :) haha Man, Im not mad, but have a totally different opinion as everybody else here as it looks like. I like Ricardo, but seeing that video hurts more that I can enjoy it. Its like kicking the last masculine mammoth to the balls (flying kick from behind, when it doesnt see it coming)...making it sterile.

There are enough guitars that can be played. This one has been played and honored enough. I see no point in using it anymore since there are enough alternatives.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 19:43:49
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

I have a Picasso above my toilet. Good for the rest of the world I guess... well well..but I have perfect lights here..nowhere else it could get enjoyed so much as in my restroom.


If you have a Picasso in your toilet and you are not sharing it you should bequeath it to a museum if you feel that way. Shame on you. And you will get a big tax write off too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 19:44:11
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I have a Picasso above my toilet.


Perfect place for it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 19:54:43
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

There are enough guitars that can be played. This one has been played and honored enough. I see no point in using it anymore since there are enough alternatives.

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Yes but it will disappear from public view and no longer be accessible to people like me who need to hear it and play it in order to understand what a guitar from that time sounds and feels like. With the exception of well endowed museums like the Met in NY most museums treat the instrument collections like the step children of the paintings. The paintings get more conservation attention and better display conditions, while instruments often times languish in poorly climate controlled rooms and disentegrate while under museum care.

The other problem is that, I'm not speaking bad of this guitar, but guitars will almost always get the poorest of care in museums because they are more difficult to care for than almost all other instruments. And the value of a guitar compared to a Stradivari instrument or a top notch Italian violin is not that much. Museums tend to put money into the most valued objects, and even the expensive instruments suffer.

Historic guitars, I am convinced, are best left in the care of collectors and dealers who specialize in understanding the conditions guitars should be maintained in. Unless a museum is like the Shrine to Music in the US they are usually not educated enough in the specialty of keeping guitars and should not have them. Collectors, guitar makers and conscientious players should steward these instruments, not institutions.

P.S. I only act crazy because, well I'm bored, but if you want to know about how museums treat objects I can tell stories from my days working in academia and museums. Suffice it to say most museums harbor these deep dark secrets they don't want the public to know. That is that many museums have some atrocious, horrible storage facilities. There are main storage facilities that house the most important objects, but there are often overflow areas that hold things they don't l have room for in better conditioned rooms. I know because I used to specialize in setting storage facilities correct and modernizing them. I have seen more trashed out objects in museum collections than you want to know about.

There is one museum here in the Bay Area that will go unnamed, but at one point ten years ago they had human remains from South American Indians stored in a leaking basement in fifty gallon metal drums. Those containers had been in that condition for several decades.
That was about the worst I had ever seen.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 19:57:18
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Shut it I like Picasso.

I also laughed my head off a while back when a certain guitar maker on the Foro compared guitars to paintings and said " ..we like Rembrandts because they are more valuable and look better than Picassos..."

Funny, very funny. Someone is not up on auction prices, besides not being able to see.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 20:03:05
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

I agree on that. Guitars are no pieces of art... They are just tools.

But this Montoya tool, is a historical tool.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 20:04:23
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2253
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

quote:

so we really have to swear about it to make a point?


**** yeah!... :) haha Man, Im not mad, but have a totally different opinion as everybody else here as it looks like. I like Ricardo, but seeing that video hurts more that I can enjoy it. Its like kicking the last masculine mammoth to the balls (flying kick from behind, when it doesnt see it coming)...making it sterile.

There are enough guitars that can be played. This one has been played and honored enough. I see no point in using it anymore since there are enough alternatives.


I think you are missing a point....As in the case of building..."perfect sound" drives us to search for a way to capture its essence. Sometimes clarity comes in unexpected moments and is lost in the same breath. This is what makes guitar building challenging.

When the fan bracing of the top communicates in perfect sequence, the instrument responds in total harmony. But we must first gain exposure to the most valued examples of guitar sound before we can achieve this tonal purity.

I have spent years experimenting with fine-tuning, and although there are alternate ways to tune a guitar, there is but one way to achieve greatness: poco a poco.

And I was able to critique some of these very fine examples for their voice and musical delivery.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 20:13:43
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Doitsujin

Doit, don't be a tool.

I can't think of very many other folks besides Brune' to have instruments like this. This guitar is getting better care from him than in a museum.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 20:14:53
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

:/ oookaaay.. What is so special about that guy?


and I think there can´t really be "perfect sound" since experiencing sound is a totally subjective thing.... Tastes are very different...

I´m not convinced yet...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 20:23:00
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

This guitar is getting better care from him than in a museum.


Escusha la verdad Doit.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 20:24:32
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Escusha la verdad Doit.


I can hear myself speaking loud and clearly. Thanks.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 20:25:11
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

I agree on that.


It is a wise man who confesses after a good browbeating!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 21:04:56
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:


and I think there can´t really be "perfect sound" since experiencing sound is a totally subjective thing.... Tastes are very different...

I´m not convinced yet...


On that point I agree with you. Lots of individual vintage guitars by important makers are totally overrated. Often times I prefer modern guitars, like Hmmm ........the ones I and my friends make.

Once someone has a guitar with a blue chip label you have the other side of the game. Yes rare guitars should stay in circulation and be valued and preserved, but having a blue chip label often gets it a better sounding referral than it really deserves.

But some people find objectivity difficult when the difference in price is $30,000 between a modern $5000.00 or $35,000.00 vintage and they own the vintage guitar.






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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2013 21:12:03
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