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Here in the Netherlands quite recently an incredible beautiful engraved eland horn was re-discovered in the catacombs of the national museum. It was part of some artefacts found in the tomb of emperor Louis the Pious. When it was donated to the museum by a german museum one might expect them to be thrilled.... but in reality various generations of museum keepers didn't took it very seriously for two reasons:
1: it was unique, so how to judge it (nothing to compare with) 2: it was to bloody perfect.....no way this could be real...must be fake.
Recent studies however show that not only it is 100% genuine (and indeed linked to emperor Louis the Pious) but also an iconic symbol of a huge change in european eating culture. I guess we all know restaurants offering "spareribs as much as you can eat". This offer is peanuts compared to the eating gatherings organized in the midd ages. The amounts of meat swollen by any given person joining the famous "eat what you can"gatherings was incredible. The church however preached a life with more modesty and the father of above Louis, the famous Charlemagne or <Charles the great> already tried a modest diet once restricting himself to a daily ration of just:
* 1 crane * 3 chucks * 1 capon * 3 chickens
Needles to say he fall back in his old habits quite soon cause who can live on that?
His son Louis the Pious however seriously devoted his time between fighting of the vikings and embracing/preaching the church way of life and obviously changing the widely spread exorbitant eating habits of his generation into a more modest ratio of foot intake was part of that new strive for virtues. As it happened the eland was seen in the mid ages as the animal that represented modest easting habits and in a way embodied Louis fight for more modest eating habits. In literature they became mentioned together and 1 day around the year 1000 an extremely gifted artist decided to engrave an eland-horn in honor of Louis. The end result was breathtaking and can be regarded as one of the most beautiful viking/celtic influenced artefacts known to man.
The same piece that received no attention by various generations of museum keepers now is regarded priceless as priceless can be.
This is not the only example of cultural heritage neglected by musea. Above piece was kept in good conditions over the years but the same can not be said about the tomb robbery's in egypt. After the priceless artefacts were removed from the graves many of them ended up in the museum of Cairo. There they were dumped in the museums cellars were they were staged on top of each other and buried under a thick layer of dust. Over 90 % of the artefact-containing boxes was never even opened and registered. They were just dumped and forgotten. Now (90 years later) the director is asking the world for funds to save the collection because the museum is falling apart, the collection is kept in the poorest conditions and people tend to steal boxes from the cellars (who will notice the disappearance of a non registered never opened box?).
Even musea that do care about good conditions and registrations can only show 10 % of the collection. Is it strange i prefer objects of beauty to be treasured by people who share and care rather than to be dumped at musea were the majority of the collection is staged and not shown to people?
RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Erik van Goch)
That is a nice moose antler, glad they found it.
The Countess emerges! I just found this. I know the niece of Bernard Greenhouse and she did not even know who had purchased the cello after the master Greenhouse died.
Looks like a partroness of the arts has given it back to the world. Maybe the Duport will yet come to light.
RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Erik van Goch)
I have had the great privelige of seeing many of the worlds most famous violins in person, open, on the bench, being repaired.
I doubt that anyone would believe that a stradivari or a guarneri violin deserves to be stuffed in a glass case in a museum.
Literally, before my eyes, 4 decades of guarneri violins all open. I got to compare purfling, varnishes, thicknesses, materials and tool work... Only because these instruments were being checked up and tidied to go back out and be played in the world's premier orchestras by the world's foremost absolute ****ing assassins of the violin.
why should a guitar of excrutiatingly limited interest to incredibly few people be stuffed in a box and forgotten in a museum archive.
Do you know what people would say at the art isntitute if they saw this guitar? they'd say "who the **** is ramon montoya? did he write classical gas? malaguena? OH LOOK SUITS OF ARMOR!!! **** YEAH!!"
Bruné is the man to keep this guitar playable, happy and healthy. It will live a long time in his care.
And because it is playable and in prime condition, luthiers can come and study it to try and solve the mysteries of guitar construction. Because they can just call richard up and swing by one of the most densely populated cities in America with the nations largest international airport etc etc..top 3 orchestras, and world's Stradivarius society violin restorer (the only one allowed to restore these historic violins)... anyway, because you can easily swing by chicago and hop a 20 minute train ride that literally lands you 40 feet from Bruné's shop without reservation, special passes, or any **** that would be involved in a museum archive visit at the Louvre, a guitar can be studied by the modest men of lutherie.
Doit, you want inexpensive, handmade, high quality guitars that sound like beasts? then luthiers need to go play and feel and measure and learn instruments from history that still work. They need to capture the essence of these still beating hearts. That takes time and patience. Did I also mention that Bruné is one of the foremost guitar builders on planet earth and that he is respected globally as the authority on guitars??? no? Did you not know that he restores and inspects Torres guitars? Did you know that he has a library of literature on guitars that would knock your socks off? You can come read those things too if you'd like.
I myself have held and experienced a torres guitar in this very shop. In the middle of nowhere, one of the 3 largest cities in the world's most well known countries. Chicago. Google it Mother **** er.
RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to HemeolaMan)
I like to look at paintings. I like to look at sculptures but I wish I could touch. I like to look at guitars but touching and listening is better. It sad seeing a guitar in a glass case crying “get me out of here”. Museums are improving a bit – concerts with historic instruments, sound and video samples – but not enough.
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to HemeolaMan)
One donor/museum combination that moved in the right direction was Gertrude Clarke Whitall and the Library of Congress. Whitall donated five Stradivari instruments in 1935-36. From 1940-62 the resident quartet were the Budapest. I was privileged to hear them in the Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge Auditorium (and to meet three of them) while we lived in Washington during the time I was in high school. From 1962 the resident quartet have been the Juilliard.
I can see it now. Donate Don Ramon's guitar to the Reina Sofia in Madrid, and have regular juergas with Paco, Tomatito, et al. Yeah, right...
RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Erik van Goch)
hahaha... Let´s see if anybody other than me spanked somebody, son... ;)
ok,thats a lot to read.. I will read this night when Im back home....
(and I might also pay some attention to the opinion of american contributers ...maybe... *as they have not much cultural history......which might be a reason why they can´t appreciate to preserve unique pieces of human history for all time for all men. Thus,... they are automatically disqualifyed for discussing that..hehehe....... :P)
*btw...I won´t discuss about German history at that point, because there is also not much to discuss either..because of other reasons....-.-
RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Erik van Goch)
It's your definition of preserve, no one agrees with. Locking it away in some dark corner and silencing it forever, is not showing it respect. No one on planet Earth can maintain or preserve this instrument any better then Brune. If it were in a museum it would sit behind glass with a 2 inch square card stating who made it, and who played it. If you asked the staff about the guitar, they would probably read from the same card you had already read. Brune on the other hand could talk all day about the guitar, its owners, the culture and history surrounding it.
This instrument would seem of little significance to the fat lady dragging her kids through a museum, and just as quickly by the staff working there. The guitar would end up forgotten, left in a leaky basement to die, not as some kind of national treasure.
There is a difference between your intentions, and what the reality would be.
RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
(and I might also pay some attention to the opinion of american contributers ...maybe... *as they have not much cultural history......which might be a reason why they can´t appreciate to preserve unique pieces of human history for all time for all men. Thus,... they are automatically disqualifyed for discussing that..hehehe....... :P)
You're just mad because Bernard Berenson bought all your art a hundred years ago and we have it here on display.
Buyers keepers!
BTW Doit you can come to Amerika and visit our National Mall where all the museums are FREE to the public.
On a serious note in general the museums in Europe are often not as in good a shape in terms of storage and proper display as American Museums. Museum Science has been far advanced in the US and many European museums consult with US museums on storage and display issues. Small museums, castles, and historic sites in Europe are often underfunded and have collections that are in dire need of conservation, but the objects go untreated and languish while on public view. I was so happy to hear that the summer palace in Sintra in Portugal finally got some conservation work done on the collection. When I was there several years ago the paintings were literally rotting off the walls. Not just uncleaned pictures, but pictures with peeling paint films being ruined by dampness while on display.
And the grandest of all instruments the Messiah Strad sits uselessly in a small dumpy glass case in Oxford. It is poorly lit and the room is often closed and a guard has to open the room. Of course the Messiah is a forgery.... so that is why Zee Dumb Amerikans did not buy it a long time ago
Of course some think the Messiah is genuine.....we could fight about that because that would actually be interesting, but it would elevate the discussion to the same level as violin snobs.
On a side note; my first teacher Mr. Tenney was of the opinion that it was fake. He looked at it shook his head and said it's not a Strad. Others will say the exact opposite. He was a pretty good eye and had no stake in it. Animportant researcher wrote about it in a sly way by opening up the essay saying what a grand instrument it is and little by little discounting each and every detail. Curious.
RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana On a serious note in general the museums in Europe are often not as in good a shape in terms of storage and proper display as American Museums.
*sigh* dude, in Europe there are these things called "schools" were you can get a thing called "education". Thats why we dont need museums. Sorry but i dont get the fuss about old stuff. I mean "oh hey, look at this 100 years old piece of wood. It neither sounds nor plays better than most the guitars you can get today." OK its nice to have a guitar built 100 yrs ago, to see what people did differently from today and maybe re-incorporate in todays guitarbuilding.. but other than that...
OK its nice to have a guitar built 100 yrs ago, to see what people did differently from today and maybe re-incorporate in todays guitar building.. but other than that...
That's correct as: Certainly science can achieve a parallel in quality, even if it doesn't actually follow the steps of the early craftsmen. But it doesn't teach us the older methods of discernment to get final results from our natural skills.
Should these old techniques be revived? And even if we learn how to use them, how would they work with the modern systems we have today? Are they so important that we can't do without them?
The answer should be that all information is important, whether we use it or not. And this is not to say that it's the only way to build but that it will provide a certain way to gain an edge, in addition to what is being done with modern techniques. By bringing back some of the older methods, we experience the old and the new together, not one or the other.
IMO, putting a guitar, no matter who's it was, in a glass case to never be touched again, is a damn shame. All guitars should be played, that can still be tuned....or they really die.
I agree here. You should play a guitar until it can't be played anymore. Then and only then, do you retire it and put it up for display. Just my opinion.
The answer should be that all information is important, whether we use it or not. And this is not to say that it's the only way to build but that it will provide a certain way to gain an edge, in addition to what is being done with modern techniques. By bringing back some of the older methods, we experience the old and the new together, not one or the other.
Is the Spanish guitar today really that different than it was from yesterday? Aside from the invention of modern adhesives and finishes, I don't believe they are all that different. Or are we talking about building techniques and not so much the actual construction and components?
Is the Spanish guitar today really that different than it was from yesterday?
It seems that it is different but that we retain certain aspects of the old with the new. However, many builders have gone away from the old school and have adopted other or newer techniques for expediency's sake rather than search for tone with a strictly intuitive style without electronic helps.
And the more we get away from the old techniques, the more we have to rely on science to help us, and we lose certain skills for a more personal attachment to our art. And intuitive skill is necessary, as it has certain elements of technique that can't be done any other way.
Michael Cone, a good builder and friend said, I use electronics to balance out the tone but using your techniques along with it, takes me there faster. So there is reason to not let the older skills die out.
For example: I have two guitars coming from Spain with my personal design being built, and yet, the fellow shipping them to me, tried them out yesterday to let me know that both guitars would have to be fine tuned. These guitars are being built with very high quality materials, etc but they still have to be voiced properly.
For example: I have two guitars coming from Spain with my personal design being built, and yet, the fellow shipping them to me, tried them out yesterday to let me know that both guitars would have to be fine tuned. These guitars are being built with very high quality materials, etc but they still have to be voiced properly.
Tom, I've been meaning to ask you about your reasoning to do this? I ask because you are a reputable builder. When someone buys a Blackshear, they do so because you built it. When they buy a Blackshear coming from Spain, they aren't buying a true Blackshear. Yes, it is voiced and fine tuned by you, but it wasn't built by your hands. There are many fine guitars out there built by other people with a different label on them. Why go into this market when you yourself are already a proven builder? Is it just a way to generate more income since you don't build as much and as often as you used to? Just curious is all. Is the design being built for you off your Reyes plan or did you design something totally different for this project?
Tom, I've been meaning to ask you about your reasoning to do this? I ask because you are a reputable builder. When someone buys a Blackshear, they do so because you built it.
Wrong, most players buy a guitar that has the best sound for the money, at least those who are musically savvy. Sound is the most important, as most guitars are playable and finished right. The deciding factor is always going to be articulation and playability for the best price.
This puts most of us builders on the same level with cosmetics but the voicing will decide the purchase on many occasions. If a master factory builder builds the guitar then it will have everything that my own model would have except the tone. In fact, there is a possibility that they would build the guitar better cosmetically.
So, I'll know something tomorrow when the first guitar arrives at my shop.
And the design is proprietary but it is a culmination of 53 years of my building experience, staying with the Spanish tradition. Many builders, before me, have actively participated in this business style, so its nothing new. And at his age, Arcangel Fernandez has done this with his apprentices building his models for many years, and with him fine tuning them.
Wrong, most players buy a guitar that has the best sound for the money, at least those who are musically savvy. Sound is the most important, as most guitars are playable and finished right. The deciding factor is always going to be articulation and playability for the best price.
This puts most of us builders on the same level with cosmetics but the voicing will decide the purchase on many occasions. If a master factory builder builds the guitar then it will have everything that my own model would have except the tone. In fact, there is a possibility that they would build the guitar better cosmetically.
So, I'll know something tomorrow when the first guitar arrives at my shop.
And the design is proprietary but it is a culmination of 53 years of my building experience, staying with the Spanish tradition. Many builders, before me, have actively participated in this business style, so its nothing new. And at his age, Arcangel Fernandez has done this with his apprentices building his models for many years, and with him fine tuning them.
True, but are you saying you've never sold a guitar to anyone who has never played your instruments before??? I'm sure you have which tell me some do buy from you based on your reputation as a builder.
Why are you following in the practice? the practice of having someone build your guitar that is?
I know many builders have someone else build them a student model or a lower end model. In my opinion, this is just so someone who can't afford their top model, still be able to buy a guitar that has their name on it. Despite the fact that it wasn't built by them, which I don't understand. I prefer when a top builder, simply just builds a 2a model. Still made by the builder. I'm not saying what your doing is wrong or bad or anything like that. It's your business. I'm just curious as to why you've decided to go this route.
True, but are you saying you've never sold a guitar to anyone who has never played your instruments before??? I'm sure you have which tell me some do buy from you based on your reputation as a builder.
Why are you following in the practice? the practice of having someone build your guitar that is?
I know many builders have someone else build them a student model or a lower end model. In my opinion, this is just so someone who can't afford their top model, still be able to buy a guitar that has their name on it. Despite the fact that it wasn't built by them, which I don't understand. I prefer when a top builder, simply just builds a 2a model. Still made by the builder. I'm not saying what your doing is wrong or bad or anything like that. It's your business. I'm just curious as to why you've decided to go this route.
Most players buy from me sight unseen but the quantity is a problem now, as I don't build fast enough, and for this reason my prices have to go up. So the best way for me to keep the price down is to contract out for a top quality model that I could be proud of, and fine-tune it to my voicing specifications, etc.
My personal guitars are going higher in price, mainly for the reason that the market will bear the price and I will have a better hourly wage. Right now, my hourly wage is about 17 to 20 dollars an hour, hardly much to show after 53 years of my building practice.
And I've already tried to build a 2A model but the quality was too good and Lucio and I had to shelve the idea, as we were still spending too much time with it. Lucio now has his own shop and is doing well. We actually built only 5 models named "Lucio Y Tomas", so these might be a collector model to keep.
*sigh* dude, in Europe there are these things called "schools" were you can get a thing called "education". Thats why we dont need museums. Sorry but i dont get the fuss about old stuff. I mean
Thankfully not all Europeans have your attitude.
I mean where else would hapless Americans with low self esteem and a lost sense of identity go to learn about their ancestry, unless! ... you wise and well schooled Europeans did not package it, put it on display and charge Yanks to go see it?
You and Doit should get together and get your story straight.
One of you is outraged that Don Ramon's guitar is being kept safe and secure in a climate controlled environment where the guitar playing and making public has access to it through the generous conditions granted by it's current steward and it's owner.
And the other of you is also outraged that Don Ramon's guitar is being kept safe and secure in a climate controlled environment where the guitar playing and making public has access to it through the generous conditions granted by it's current steward and it's owner.
Most players buy from me sight unseen but the quantity is a problem now, as I don't build fast enough, and for this reason my prices have to go up. So the best way for me to keep the price down is to contract out for a top quality model that I could be proud of, and fine-tune it to my voicing specifications, etc.
My personal guitars are going higher in price, mainly for the reason that the market will bear the price and I will have a better hourly wage. Right now, my hourly wage is about 17 to 20 dollars an hour, hardly much to show after 53 years of my building practice.
And I've already tried to build a 2A model but the quality was too good and Lucio and I had to shelve the idea, as we were still spending too much time with it. Lucio now has his own shop and is doing well. We actually built only 5 models named "Lucio Y Tomas", so these might be a collector model to keep.
Understood. I thought that may be the case but I just thought I'd ask because I don't know any American builders doing this. I'm sure there are. I just don't know any.
I remember those Lucio y Tomas guitars. Lucio has gone on to be quite the builder. I used to offer his guitars many years ago but at the time, I don't think he was as well known so I rarely got any interest in them.
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