Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: "surprising" letras
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
|
 RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to NormanKliman)
|
|
|
I'm not suggesting Johnny Cash actually shot a man in Reno - just that, as you say, it's not something he actually did. He's telling a story (from the first person). As I understand it, Kate's point, which you very rudely replied to, was that many flamenco letras might be the same. For example, it's quite possible that the cantaor who wrote the letras you referred to never actually saw his sister in a whorehouse. That seems reasonable, right?
I also made a point that the song is clearly in the first person, even if it's not a true story. That's just what first person means.
Here's what Kate said, which you call "lying through her teeth":
quote:
Did Jonny Cash actually do that ? I dont think so. Just because artists, from wherever, sing about something does not make it true for them.
Johnny Cash didn't actually shoot a man in Reno. Check. Just because an artist sings about something doesn't mean it actually happened. Check. What's the enormous lie, again?
Anyway, my own aggressiveness aside, this is a community. You're new here and you're hardly making yourself welcome by antagonizing our members. That's just my suggestion, you can take it or leave it. It's especially laughable given how involved Kate is in the Granada flamenco community - just click some of the links in her signature. To suggest she doesn't know anything about flamenco is just silly. Your reaction to Kate's post was mean, overblown, and completely out of line for a community like this one. That's all I was taking issue with. How about this: I'm sorry for my meanness in reaction to yours. Can you apologize for yours, as well? Clean slate.
quote:
By the way: thanks for that XKCD comic. My opinion: it's garbage....
I happen to think that it's a rather clever comic, and I also find self-reference quite amusing. Oh well. To each his own.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 13 2010 14:41:18
 |
|
Escribano
Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
|
 RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to Sufimoor)
|
|
|
quote:
Have you read or seen any interviews with Johnny Cash or others regarding Folsom Prison Blues (the song in question)? In many, many interviews, Johnny Cash admitted the song was not about anything that he had done
Now you're just wriggling and patronising at the same time.
quote:
A fourth time poster on a Foro Flamenco forum could still tell the truth while an established, multi-poster on the same forum could lie through their teeth all day.
It's an opinion, not the truth. Did Johnny really sing that song (you know, the one in question, duh) in the 3rd person?
Coincidentally, it was that very line ("just to watch him die") that got me studying Cash and working on some influenced material. So if you can imagine a Luther Perkins riff on the E and A string and Johnny's intonation, you might just be able to sing along to this one:
God's Train (by me)
I know God's train is coming
Cos' I hear the rails are humming
And the De-vil is laughing at my back
From the distant sound and fury
Of that mighty judge and jury
A tall man is walking down the tracks
He packs a 44 pistol and a gee-tar case
In his long black coat
I'm sure I know his face
[CHORUS]
He's come to warn me
That I should put things right
That this ain't no rehearsal
And I might be dead tonight
[REPEAT]
It's sung in the 3rd person, of course 
quote:
You simply need to familiarize yourself more with Flamenco's history - contrary to popular belief, it is not all "Happy-Happy Joy-Joy" Cante Chico with flowers, polka-dot skirts, and letras about sipping Sherry in Jerez...
Classic
_____________________________
Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 13 2010 14:48:09
|
|
Sufimoor
Posts: 8
Joined: May 4 2009
|
|
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to Adam)
|
|
|
For starters, my apologies to the Foro Flamenco community if anyone took my remarks as "aggressive" or "hostile" towards Kate. I guess everyone's entitled to his/her opinion, so long as it doesn't rub someone's friend(s) on the Forum the wrong way.
Ramparts, you still don't get my point, and at this point, it really doesn't matter anymore. To finish the matter, it was actually Kate who tossed the first halo of hostility when she accused me of perpetuating "stereotypes" (read her post) when that clearly wasn't the case at all. Wonder why no one called her "passive-aggressive" for that? Seems many people have a problem accepting or seeing others accept correction. Me being new to the Forum/Community or how many times I have posted to the Forum has nothing to do with the issue (s) at hand and amounts to nothing more than a smokescreen tossed into the discussion because someone felt someone else was being unfairly attacked.
I don't need a re-quote on what Kate said - I read it just like everyone else, thank you, and I didn't antagonize her anymore than she antagonized me by accusing me of "stereotyping." Know the game first before you call the plays...
There was no "enormous lie," that was a figurative statement that had nothing to do with Kate or anyone else on the forum. I never said Kate knew nothing about Flamenco, I said considering her signature and her statements, she needed to familiarize (which denotes she knows SOMETHING about Flamenco) herself with Flamenco's history (Newsflash: it wasn't all pretty), and that it was strange she didn't know that Flamenco letras vary and aren't all "Sunny Sunny 85 degrees in Jerez," and that life for Gypsies, especially that which spawned many of the famous Flamenco letras was difficult, which "at times" manifested itself within the letras. Sure, it is possible the "whorehouse" letra never really happened, but its also a possibility that it could have.
Kate being a powerhouse in the Granada Flamenco community and being heavily involved in it is a non-issue - we can all learn something new about Flamenco everyday, heck, even Paco De Lucia learns something new about Flamenco everyday. No one knows any and everything about Flamenco, and never will, no matter how "experienced" in a particular Flamenco community they are...
With the exception of remarks that may have seen "rude" to some people other than Kate, I stand by my original post (which was NOT mean, overblown, or completely out of line with the Foro Flamenco community, anymore than Kate's "mean, overblown, and completely out of line with the Foro Flamenco community" reaction to my post calling it "stereotypes.)"
Thank you, Escribano, for your constructive criticism to my post and showing understanding, tact, and maturity, as well as correctly identifying your song, "God's Train," in "3rd person."
Again, my apologies to all offended parties regarding this incident, and the slate stands clean....
_____________________________
"Oh Gypsy woman you're a moor- a moor from the moorish district."
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 13 2010 17:07:19
|
|
Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
|
|
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to Sufimoor)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sufimoor
you should very well know the history of the struggles and hardships that the Gypsies in Spain have been through, and yes, those struggles and hardships do at times manifest itself in the lyrics
Now that is a statement I can agree with, but that is not what you said, you made a massive and insulting generalisation that most flamencos led bad lives , which is not the same thing at all as Gypsies being an oppressed, impoverished and persecuted minority.
My point about Jonny Cash was that singers from all over the world sing about whatever but it does not mean it is their personal experience or lifestyle.
Still thank you for posting those letras, they make for an interesting commentary on the double standards in Gypsy culture, while also being comic.
In reply to X, I was once told by Remedios Amaya that you could sing anything in Bulerías. She then insisted I try and sing Tom Jones ' Its not unusual' por Bulería to prove her point. It was hilarious. You should try it 
_____________________________
Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2010 3:13:25
|
|
X
Posts: 72
Joined: May 21 2009
|
|
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to NormanKliman)
|
|
|
Hey, Escribano,
Nice lyrics. Why not upload GodsTrain.mp3?
Ramparts,
I think it's very likely postmodernism has exhausted itself and has now run its course. But as far as I know, it never touched flamenco, so it'd be lost on many flamencos. Actually IMO flamenco could use a touch of it. Sometimes the "sincerity" goes over the top and becomes a total turnoff.
quote:
...even Paco De Lucia learns something new about Flamenco everyday. Sufimoor, do you know this for a fact, or are you reasoning por Aristotelian syllogism? Tell us what new thing Paco learned about flamenco yesterday. Isn't possible that in his mind Paco has essentially "retired" and today his daily concern is gardening or grandkids or whatever? And now you've gone and offended him. Careful with the stereotypes, eh?
EDIT:
Whoops, Kate, I didn't see your post before (funny, my post's time tag is earlier than yours but yours lists first). I just tried "It's Not Unusual" por bulerias but the final "you-oh-oh-ay-ay-ay" keeps falling everywhere but the 10th beat. I need some palmas :)
No intention to add fuel to a sputtering fire here. Lighten up, all, and be happy in 2010!
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2010 3:31:13
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14857
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to Sufimoor)
|
|
|
quote:
most of these Flamencos have had "bad lives," and it at times manifests itself in the letras.
Hmmm, do you really not see how your generalization of flamenco singers is offensive? Your implication, especially the way you worded you description of the jail bird cante competition, the whore house example, belching letras, US drug offenses, etc, etc, is that MOST (your word MOST) flamencos are scumbags. (That is my colorful word for your implications of people who live "bad lives", vs say people that have had a HARD LIFE which is a lot different.)
I dont' mind the offensiveness myself. You could be correct if we can take an inventory of all singers in history and their public and domestic offenses, but I seriously doubt it. Anyway, what don't you get about the analogy????? I mean come on, sure some OLD singers were singing from experience, but even some of them were singing 3rd person what their grandfather taught them. That's why the letras are traditional. In some cases, the trad letras actually apply to a more modern interpretor, but coincidentally. Guys singing about their lives in jail last year are not interpreting traditional letras, they are making new ones.
Unless what you are saying is that Johnny Cash was a good guy who sang in 3rd person (no one EVER SAID DIFFERENT IN THIS THREAD, but thanks for reiterating it over and over), where as EVERY flamenco singer not in prison, is Curro Frijones....which makes no sense. 
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2010 5:46:44
|
|
Sufimoor
Posts: 8
Joined: May 4 2009
|
 RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
Ricardo, you are correct as well. The two of us actually met in Washington, D.C. about 10 years ago (I know Miguelito, Carlton, Gerard, Behzad, Marija Temo, and all of the Flamencos in the D.C. area) talking about Gerardo Nunez, Jason Mcguire, different places all over southern Spain for Flamenco, ect. I've even seen you perform a few times at Las Tapas (I was the guy with the ponytail & glasses who looks almost exactly like Miguelito).
I guess it wasn't so much WHAT I said, it was HOW I said it. I certainly didn't mean for the words to come out that all Flamencos were scumbags, only that they were just, human. People have the tendency to deify human beings, especially in the realm of Flamenco music, and it is true that the overall majority of Flamencos are well-mannered, law-abiding world citizens. How else could they travel as much and as often as they do?
Ricardo, I stand corrected. Once again, I am sorry....
_____________________________
"Oh Gypsy woman you're a moor- a moor from the moorish district."
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2010 17:44:35
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.0625 secs.
|
Printable Version
