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Someone on foroflamenco is privately sending me harassing messages such as the following. Is there any way to identify him or her? Criticism is fine, but when one individual sends private messages that pretend to speak in the name of an entire group, it concerns us all.
> -----Mensaje original----- > De: Bill Johnson [mailto:bigbilljohnson@hotmail.com] > Enviado el: martes, 13 de julio de 2004 14:01 > Para: zata@wanadoo.es > Asunto: go away > > > You are ruining the foroflamenco forum with your nonsense. > You are afraid > to put your crazy ideas on flamencodisc because there are > people there that > know your silly ideas for what they are. You found a couple > of unwitting > souls to accept your preachings based on your so called > resume and now > you've taken over foroflamenco.
Your very welcome at the foro Please try not to worrie about as****s like that. It´s sad that some take this toooo personal
Henrik, thank you...I'm so shallow that all it took was this one message and the little man strumming his guitar to brighten my day .
I like to think that *anything* can be discussed provided it's done in a courteous way, but in real life it doesn't work like that. In the past I've received death threats via email for messages no different from what I've been posting here, it makes you wonder....
I'm really sorry to hear about this Estela and you are right it concerns us all.
It is sickening that someone on this forum are posting here under pseudonyms and using other pseudonyms to post hate mail to you personally. I sure hope this forum does not turn into the paranoid slanging match that is flamenco disc. These people are seriously disturbed. I was also disappointed to learn that someone here is copying our posts and putting them on the other forum.
Simon is there anything that can be done ? Perhaps you can insist that people register giving their full details. They dont have to be published online, there's nothing wrong with having a nickname. I use my own name as do many of us. Many of you know where I live and have visited me. I have nothing to hide. Neither does Estela. Why should others be allowed to hide their identity ? Like I said it could be confidential and anyone not willing to name themselves should treated with suspicion. What do you say Simon we cant let Estela get hate mail from one of us and not take some sort of action. Since Estela joined we have had some of the most interesting discussions ever. Who else among us, sings, dances and plays flamenco guitar, speaks Spanish like a native Andaluz, and has lived the flamenco life in Spain for 33 years, is respected by the flamenco industry as well as the artists and who is usually paid for her opinions.
People should stand up and be counted. Who else on here is at flamenco disc? Anyone want to own up to cross posting , anyone want to own up to sending Estela hate mail? No I didn't think so.
Simon is there anything that can be done ? Perhaps you can insist that people register giving their full details
Sorry, I screen as best I can but can do nothing to stop someone using a false or throwaway email address to send members harassing emails. Nor can I stop them posting to other forums. I'll look into it.
Well, Estela all I can do is add my support. I appreciate your presence here and knowledge, and the lively discussion that you generate. Sorry that wackos are bothering you, it's really too bad.
RE: Who is this nut anyhow? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
I've always liked Zata's incisive and direct, "to the point" journalism. She is a mine of great information, always a keen, and finely honed intellect and direct from the source. Someone who has lived, not merely as an observer, but an active participant in the Art of Flamenco as it is performed in Andalucia, for over three decades. I value her work greatly, and as I said, her 2's explanation of Bulerias has opened up what was an impenetrable door for me. It's starting to make sense now. (I emphasise "starting", 'cos there is no single "key" to this) But Zata's explanation puts it in a new framework where I'm beginning to understand where the Jerez guitarists are coming from.
ORIGINAL: zata Someone on foroflamenco is privately sending me harassing messages such as the following. Is there any way to identify him or her?
Comparing IP addresses? Mind you, I'm sure Simon will fill you in on the problems there...
It is a real shame that there are people like this who don't have the guts to stand up behind their own arguments, and need to hide behind false names. Very cowardly.
The stuff about Zata 'taking over' FF is ridiculous and a bit of an insult to the rest of us. She has had a great deal of input on one particular issue recently, thats all, and input that many of us value greatly.
Some people are so insecure that they just can't take their own views or ideas being challlenged.
RE: Who is this nut anyhow? (in reply to Jon Boyes)
quote:
Some people are so insecure that they just can't take their own views or ideas being challlenged.
By the way, what's Flamendo Disc?
People who really believe in what they say are happy to be challenged because it gives you the chance to elaborate on something that's important to you. A hostile or negative response usually means there were no true 'views', just an ego trip.
Flamencodisc is a yahoogroup which grew out of the old Temple forum...possibly the first on-line flamenco discussion group...after it went down in flames. The hostile environment has driven off many valuable contributors including several published authorities. There used to be a high level, but it's now reduced to group therapy for 3 or 4 aging wanna-bees who visited Morón during the "American period" and have since lost touch with flamenco...with the glaring exception of the brilliant Brook Zern, who rarely posts. Kate, Sean and others here can confirm the accuracy of this description.
I for one am not happy with you! I thought I had some of this stuff figured out, but noooooooo! Bulerias in two’s. Buleria al Golpe is out the window. What next? No Santa Claus?!
Actually, we love you babe! Although most of the stuff you talk about is over my head, I have always enjoyed your input. So keep it up, we need you.
I'm on flamenco disc and have been for years. There are some good aficianados there. I've never cross posted and don't intend to. There are strong opinions there, which come from people's intense involvement with flamenco. There are also a lot of personal attacks, which I try to avoid. But those attacks don't stop me from enjoying the viewpoints of people I've watched perform for over twenty years, and those who, although I've never met, know more about flamenco than I even want to.
Mark, consider this: when you know more than someone, it's easy to see how much they know. But when you think someone knows more than you, how do you know they know?
If I say alegrias was brought to Spain from Algeria and the name got corrupted over the years, you might think "Wow! fascinating!" Until someone comes along and tells you that is not so, which doesn't always happen. Now that so many knowledgeable people have left flamencodisc, the level is very low and a great deal of misinformation is going unchallenged. I stay subscribed in case Brook Zern decides to post...he's worth the wait!
Hello guys. Blimey what's going on lately? Disapproving frown...
I'm interested in learning about flamenco and making friends to enjoy flamenco with, whether it's at home here or in England or Spain. Having shared a few finos and meals with you Estela I consider you a friend. I can extend that to several others as well.
Estela demonstrated in person a geniune attitude towards people like me who haven't been at this game long and have a huge amount to learn. I am not interested in conflict or arrogance, I have no time for it at all in fact. I'm at work here so I have to type quickly. That's my reaction anyway only normally i'd be witty like Henrik and all ....catch u later.
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You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf
It strikes me as strange that a person would lurk on a list 'A' and then cross post on list 'B' and never enter the discussion on list 'A'. There's only one reason - he wants to stir the pot and then sit back and watch the fireworks. I have no tolerance for people who send private messages when they could just as easily post on the forum where everyone could see their stupidity. Phil
PS. Keep on posting your 'crazy ideas' on this forum. I enjoy them and find them very informative, as I'm sure the other 'unwitting souls' here do. At least they're more informative than anything Big Bill's ever posted.
Mark, consider this: when you know more than someone, it's easy to see how much they know. But when you think someone knows more than you, how do you know they know?
Estela 'Zata' [/quote]
I was refering to people I know personally, those who I've seen perform, played with, or, as in the case with Brook Zern, I know from his posts that he has a lot of experience. For example, his extensive knowledge of recordings tells me that he has spent a lot of time listening to flamenco. And I'll never forget his description of the playing of Pepe Motos, a guitarist I've never heard, who, based on his account , was a great player. John Moore wrote a very fine post on the different kinds of aficianados and what kinds of knowledge they have, from senoritos to guitarists to singers, etc. I think that if you can wade through the personal BS, one can learn from these different kinds of people, if you have enough experience to know what is legit and what is BS.
Well for me even the brilliant presence of Brook Stern and John Moore does not make me want to hang out with a bunch of psychopaths. If it was just harmless **** I'd shrug it off too but its not, its vicious and threatening and is meant to intimidate, to belittle, to bully, and it makes me mad as hell that they have turned up here in disguise to play their wierd little power games.........
oh humpphhhh, I'm ranting, sorry Mark didn't mean to take it out on you,
John Moore wrote a very fine post on the different kinds of aficianados and what kinds of knowledge they have, from senoritos to guitarists to singers, etc.
Mark, John Moore is one of those valuable members who quit some time back, and a personal friend as well. Brook Zern is the only one left and he very rarely posts.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Who is this nut anyhow? (in reply to El Craic)
Well that's a pity if John quit. There are others however, that have experience, and that is a somewhat rare thing on these forums. There is a lot of basic info out there, but not that much from people who have worked in Spain-I realize that you have, but there are precious few guitarists posting that have-John was one of them. Any chance someone like Emilio would chime in occasionally?
I've been trying to pin Emilio down to take a listen to the group jams, but it's not that easy, plus the language difference means I would have to translate everything, so right now its unlikely. We're having a very busy time since the CD was released, Emilio is playing most nights either accompanying or solo. Over the next few months we have shows booked in England, Germany, Belgium, Prague, Vienna and already started booking next year. And maybe even a US trip, I'll let everyone here know when/if it's confirmed. Whereabouts are you ?
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Who is this nut anyhow? (in reply to El Craic)
Hi Kate, I'm not trying to be coy, but I was unable to sign on using my former screen name, which was MartinC, because I couldn't remember my password, and I had changed e-mail addresses, so, because many people call me Mark, I created a new screen name that I can hopefully remember. As you may recall, I live near San Francisco. I still listen to my Taller CD sometimes-it's held up very well to repeated listenings. I think I've posted enough about flamenco disc, so I'll drop that business. I'm happy to see that you and Harold have produced another CD. I certainly understand why an artist such as Emilio is too busy to post on an internet forum, but still hope the day comes when pros can contribute and round out the discussions and add some much needed expertise to various topics. Many recording artists in other fields of music monitor their web sites and respond to fans directly. I'm not aware of any flamencos that do, but I think the day is coming when some will.
Many recording artists in other fields of music monitor their web sites and respond to fans directly. I'm not aware of any flamencos that do, but I think the day is coming when some will.
Montse Cortés once was available for a two-hour period for online chat...I thought it would be fun so I asked her a few questions, but the strange answers made me think it might have been people hired for the purpose.
Of course I remember you. Hows the home studio and are you still gigging ? Glad you're still enjoying the Taller CD. And Yeah I have no wish to talk about flamenco Disc either. I just donrt see the point of making enemies online, sort of defeats the object. I 'm just glad we have a civilised forum here, and that the fenix and Dacner forums seem to be going strong without flame wars, but this one is definitely the most active, thanks to Simon and the audio uploads and jam sessions. One day I'll get Emilio involved in a discussion. He's coming round to the idea slowly and always asks if he has any emails, since I set up an account for him. We could arraneg a time and do say an hour of questions and answers. We could have invited guests, as long as there is always someone with them to translate. I think it would attract a lot of people to the forum and help sell some CDs.
Talking of which, his new CD will be available soon, like next week, from CDBaby.com Harold just went of to the States to make an album ( no not flamenco) and took a box with him. It will save on postage for US buyers. So far I think Scott is the only one in America from this forum to have a copy ! But I'd love to know what everyone thinks. Its getting very well received here and has been favourably compared to both Paco and Tomatito's latest. What more could we ask
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