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As the Bulerías 2's thread is (hopefully) drawing to an end and most of the issues have been discussed, it would be interesting to take a poll on the method members would use now for basic Bulerías timekeeping. (foot tapping etc).
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
As the Bulerías 2's thread is (hopefully) drawing to an end and most of the issues have been discussed, it would be interesting to take a poll on the method members would use now for basic Bulerías timekeeping. (foot tapping etc).
I voted for a "combination" before rereading the question and seeing the word "basic" in which case it's twos.
Again, let's not confuse bulerías al golpe (soleá por bulería) with the old style 6-beat bulerías...another wild card we don't need .
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
quote:
Again, let's not confuse bulerías al golpe (soleá por bulería) with the old style 6-beat bulerías...another wild card we don't need
When they say 'Bulerias al golpe' they don't mean BpS. I first heard the term a couple of years ago on one of the forums and finally figured out that that's what they call it when the guitarist taps out 1-2, 4-5, ...... on the golpeador, as a lot of older Bulerias were commonly played. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
I had never heard the term before and only recently heard Pepe Marin on his Jerez Flamenco TV program refer to a Bulerias por Solea as a 'Bulerias al Golpe'. Apparently, it's another one of those ambiguous terms that means one thing in one area and something else in another area.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
Estela, Unfortunately nearly all of the Flamenco guitar students who post here and at Flamenco Teacher, refer to this toe-tapping as Al Golpe. When people adopt a word (such as "palo"), you've just got to use it to make yourself understood. What else can you do?
By the way "Al Golpe" may just be the stage name that Jon or Rob have been looking for
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
Andy, I was neither agreeing or disagreeing. What I was saying that I have been told on the two Forums over the years that this is called "Bulerias Al Golpe". So that's the terminology I use. If somebody said "Yo" or "Massive" (or even "Palo") 50 years ago, folk would have had difficulty in understanding what they were on about. Some folk have mentioned (including Estela and Phil) that this is not the terminology which would be used in Jeréz and surrounding areas. I'm not a Flamencologist amigo, just somebody who plays around with guitar, listens to Flamenco records and reads Internet Forums.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
quote:
I think you are playing the same big fish in a small bowl scam as Todd at F-T.
Andy, With due respect, I think that is unwarranted. Forums are for discussing and arguing about ideas and propositions, not people. Estela is a valued member here, as are you.
Remember what I said about everybody here is an "Honourable Member".
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Again you are on a campaign of spreading misinformation. I know a professional dancer from Jerez who teaches palmas al golpe in her rhythm classes and she means the old style 6-beat bulerías NOT solea por bulerias. I'll put my trust in her.
Andy, Phil (who has lived near Jeréz for years) also says.... "I had never heard the term before and only recently heard Pepe Marin on his Jerez Flamenco TV program refer to a Bulerias por Solea as a 'Bulerias al Golpe'. Apparently, it's another one of those ambiguous terms that means one thing in one area and something else in another area."
So does that mean your friend is right and everybody else obviously wrong?
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
Yeah, but Andy... We all know we have to take things with a grain of salt...just somebody's entrenched opinion, that they believe with their heart and soul. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of Flamencos in Andalucia who would not see eye to eye on any particular issue. It is particularly easy to become "charmed" by one's Spanish born and bred Flamenco friend or teacher into thinking that they are personally telling you the Gospel on a one to one basis. But in reality, it's only one human being's personal opinion. I'm sure if I had to spend one evening in the hospitality of George Bush or Tony Blair, I'd leave thinking that perhaps the war in Iraq was the best strategic decision that's been made in the last 100 years. Then again, I go to Tommy Sherridan's house and have a meal and a drink and leave believing they both should be had up for war crimes! They are all very charismatic people. You've got to watch! I've heard some things during private conversations with very respected performers in the Flamenco circle that made me think I'd suddenly achieved an insight, a secret from someone who "knows", only later to find out that that's his or her's particular view on things and some other equally respected person say's the opposite. Anyway, amigo I really think Zata deserves an apology for going over the line in what you said about her motives. (You're a very bad boy and will be immediately sent into the "naughty corner" if you don't. ) Seriously, Andy..you sound quite stressed out there, man, quite unlike yourself. C'mon Man... let's try to be civil here and discuss ideas only.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M)
Andy, not to gang up on you, but Ron's completely right. Your friend is no doubt an incredible flamenco and has forgotten about it more than I'll ever know. But just because he uses a certain terminology does not mean it holds true from city to city, region to region. It's just like when I was in Sevilla and three of my teachers had different defintions of Solea por buleria! Three good teachers and excellent players. This is just how it is my friend.
If you were to hang out with Muddy Waters he would probably throw a lot of terms at you that would make no sense to Robert Johnson. What is certain is that if those two got together and to talkin', they would manage to communicate no matter what idiosyncratic words they used.
But Ron is right about the charisma thing. Flamenco has nothng like the Spanish government or whatever that standardized the Spanish language. Flamenco...is more like English! :)
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Phil)
quote:
When they say 'Bulerias al golpe' they don't mean BpS. I first heard the term a couple of years ago on one of the forums and finally figured out that that's what they call it when the guitarist taps out 1-2, 4-5, ...... on the golpeador, as a lot of older Bulerias were commonly played. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Phil, you are wrong, and I wouldn't say that so black-and-whitely if I weren't 200% sure.
The sentence above, "I first heard the term....on one of the forums" says it all. There is an entire body of misinformation which in particular American flamenco aficionados cling to as having come down from Mt. Sinai along with the ten commandments. For example, there is no such thing as fandango 'grande' and taranto is NOT a taranta with rhythm applied.
I've been living in Jerez for several months in an apartment that was lent to me for the purpose of carrying out this grant research, and taking full advantage of it, getting deeply into the Jerez ambiente, making friends and attending every possible flamenco happening. For six Mondays I was invited to participate in the Ondajerez flamenco radio tertulia (a sort of a round-table discussion), and by chance, the obligatory topic for all those programs was "bulería por soleá". We were four regular speakers and always one or more cantaor, either in person or via telephone. Among the guest singers asked to define bulería por soleá and the various labels it receives, were Joaquín el Zambo, Enrique Sordera and Antonio el Platero of the Agujetas family. Each one made it clear that bulerías por soleá, soleá por bulerías, bulerías al golpe and bulerías pa’ escuchar are one and the same thing , and that all those labels are all understood. That’s representatives of the Zambos, the Sorderas and the Agujetas, the three families credited with creating, developing and preserving this form, and the age range of the three men goes from 35-ish to 84. I personally interviewed Enrique Sordera in relation to the research and he confirmed the “bulerías al golpe” label, not by words, but inadvertently by saying at one point in his recorded interview: “conocí al Gloria cuando él ya era un hombre mayor…qué bien cantaba la bulería al golpe” (I met el Gloria [a legendary singer from Jerez] when he was an old man…he sang great bulerías al golpe). Enrique then goes on to sing in a low voice, a lengthy series of what most people here would call bulería por soleá, and explains he learned those cantes from El Gloria who apparently used the same label for them.
It’s extremely tempting to say “bulerías al golpe” are those “tac-tac (rest) tac-tac” bulerías, and “bulería pa’ escuchar” is bulerías cante sung at a slower speed and intended for listening, not dancing…but neither of those definitions bears any similarity to the term as used in Andalucía by flamenco singers and guitarists over the last hundred or so years.
It’s easier to assimilate the odd labeling if you hear what Joaquín Zambo had to say the night he joined the tertulia, as explained to him by elders who were eye-witness to the process. He said these cantes came into being around the turn of the century in the taverns of downtown Jerez. At that time the system of wealthy señoritos contracting artists for fiestas was just coming of age and was an important source of income for the gitano barrios of Jerez….sherry wealth finally was trickling down to the impoverished individuals who worked the vineyards. After a long night’s juerga when singers would gather for a “night-cap” in downtown Jerez, they liked to sing this rather subdued (in comparison to bulerías) and free-style form. Zambo in particular emphasized the freedom of the form which, like bulerías, absorbs other cantes, and has a do-it-yourself compás that highlights and relies on the importance of the 6-beat unit, as opposed to the neat format of soleá. It was a cante never accompanied by guitar or palmas, only knuckles on wooden tables…hence, the “golpe”. The label “bulería pa’ escuchar” harks back to the same scenario, since dance was not a part of those hung-over morning-after gatherings that helped the artists wind down.
Excuse the long message…the intent is to circumvent the lengthy process of “so-and-so told me…”, then the confusing replies and people getting hot under the collar. I know from experience that the labeling of these cantes is one of those powder kegs no one wants to ignite.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
quote:
Phil (who has lived near Jeréz for years) also says.... "I had never heard the term before and only recently heard Pepe Marin on his Jerez Flamenco TV program refer to a Bulerias por Solea as a 'Bulerias al Golpe'. Apparently, it's another one of those ambiguous terms that means one thing in one area and something else in another area."
On the surface, Phil is right, but it's not that simple. In preparation for my (scary) experience of having to discuss bulería por soleá with the Jerez elite to be broadcast via Internet to the whole world, I took an informal survey of singers, guitarists and aficionados in Morón, Utrera and Lebrija about what these confusing terms meant to them. In Lebrija, which is just a few minutes north of Jerez, the labeling was the same as in Jerez. But further northward, Morón and Utrera, which is in a certain flamenco sense isolated from Lebrija in Jerez, everyone had to wing it...they were unfamiliar with the labels "bulerías al golpe" and "bulerías pa' escuchar", but that never stops a Spaniard, so they patiently explained the literal meanings (i.e.: "pa' escuchar" means for listening and "al golpe" means a clippy percussive compás).
My gist is, these are not terms in current use and which simply have another definition. In towns surrounding Sevilla (which is a huge chunk of cante territory) it's just bulería por soleá, or soleá por bulería, and the other two labels are not applied to anything.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
Unfortunately nearly all of the Flamenco guitar students who post here and at Flamenco Teacher, refer to this toe-tapping as Al Golpe. When people adopt a word (such as "palo"), you've just got to use it to make yourself understood. What else can you do?
Ron, it’s unfortunate only for those people who will eventually travel to Spain and have yet another obstacle to communication. If you know both the American definition and the Spanish one, you can play in both sandboxes.
“When people adopt a word (such as "palo"), you've just got to use it to make yourself understood.”
If the people are Spanish flamenco artists, I go right along with it (which is the reason I now use "bulerías al golpe" in the Spanish sense) because the ultimate goal is communication. For the most part, people over 50 refuse to use the word ‘palo’, but since I’ve always been a follower, not a leader, you’ll see it in all my published reviews.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I don't know what's happening, but I'm privately receiving notification from the forum of some strange, even offensive messages of the type you see at flamencodisc, but when I click on the link, there's no message! If someone is posting gratuitous insults, I'd kind of like to know who it is, even though I wouldn't bother to answer.
I don't even know whether the following, not one of the offensive messages, and allegedly from "AndyB" was ever written because it's one of the broken links:
"In an interview on the Rito video series, Melchor de Marchena refers to the style of bulerias of his era as al golpe. So are you adding him to the masses of uninformed?"
In a previous message I explained how the term "al golpe" came into being and how someone from northern Andalucía might conceivably use it in the literal sense, since as a "term" per se, it doesn't exist. Ask the man in street who has no computer what a "forum" is and he'll quickly explain about the Romans and the togas and Julius Caesar and Marlon Brando...
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M)
I'm choosing messages at random from the string in order to answer, since I'm still getting these broken links.
"I know a professional dancer from Jerez who teaches palmas al golpe in her rhythm classes and she means the old style 6-beat bulerÃas NOT solea por bulerias."
Spaniards who teach foreigners quickly pick up their terminology right along with their language. Juan Serrano for example has picked up the habit of saying "fandango grande" for "fandango natural", but you can be sure he knows better than to use the former in Spain.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
When i say al-golpe i mean a slower style of buleria played in the old days bye M.de Marchena ,Diego del gastore. and so forth. As Juan Martin says it´s more of a "country style" not a big city style. I think it´s the taping on the golpeador of the guitar that makes it al-golpe. but what the hell..what do i know.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
quote:
When i say al-golpe i mean a slower style of buleria played in the old days bye M.de Marchena ,Diego del gastore. and so forth. As Juan Martin says it´s more of a "country style" not a big city style.
Old recordings show an accelerated bulerías tempo which Diego del Gastor also played. The molasses-slow kind often associated with him came much later and were a purely personal creation, not copied by anyone outside Morón. IMO the longer Ricardo phrase which mimicked the compás of soleá was conducive to slowing down the tempo...the short 1-2, 4-5 phrase sounds empty when played slow.
Bulerías al golpe is not "slow bulerías", it's an entirely different cante. Typically guitarists hear it and only notice the slower tempo.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
i only meant that every time i`ve heard it it´s slower than a "modern buleria" somebody in a post said that this is not black or white ...hm who was that? of course it´s not allways slow(al-golpe). duh! Cheerio!!
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
quote:
i only meant that every time i`ve heard it it´s slower than a "modern buleria"
By that definition all cante is “bulerías al golpe” since bulerías is the fastest tempo.
Speed is never a good reference. Tangos played slowly is slow tangos, not tientos. Soleá played fast is fast soleá, not soleá por bulería. Speed itself is an illusion because the steady downbeat of a stately soleá is the same tempo as every two beats of bulerías, so in either case the singer is being guided by the same real time beat. Or when siguiriyas is played at breakneck speed as is now the fashion…the singer does not sing any differently and all that happens is the music projects an urgency it didn’t have before…the cante lasts the same amount of time, but more compases are ‘consumed’.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M)
Well, as you can see, our server has been practically overwhelmed with resonses to the latest poll, with a staggering 12 voters to date!!! If you are having difficulty, getting through, then we ask you to be patient and try again at another time, as your vote is most appreciated. However, if you are still experiencing difficulty, then don't despair, as you can still write, with your vote to:-
Simon, England.
Please enclose $50 to cover various staff and administration charges in dealing with your request and be assured that your choice will be subject to the most stringent privacy laws in the entire Solar System, with the exeption of Pluto. (But those Plutonians are a strange lot anyway....so let's just ignore them.)
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
Ron,
I believe the low response may be more to do with lack of knowledge rather than apathy. I for one am baffled by Buleria. So if you were to ask me which method I use to count Buleria, my answer is "hell I'm just trying to figure out "how" to count it, rather than which method".
My guess is, most on this forum fall into the same camp as I. I would venture out on a limb that no more than a dozen of us (not me) have a good grasp of counting Buleria.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
I already put down my response. I think I get it. You tap your foot three times, corresponding to 12, 2, 4. Then you do it again, corresponding to 6, 8, 10. You don't need to think the count, you just tap, and rely on the natural ability to do so. This works on bulerias because it's quick so there's no chance to lose track of the the three taps.