RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping.

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[Poll]

Bulerías basic timekeeping.

Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)?

28% (19)

"Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)?

9% (6)

Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)?

30% (20)

A combination of the above

31% (21)

Total Votes : 66

(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41)

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sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)

On the contrary, foot tapping is extremely important. And then i mean tapping in two´s or three´s. Thats when you have internalized the compas and no longer rely on outside crutches like a metronome or a loop.

Music isnt sound all the time, its space as well, try to be quiet for one and a half compas without tapping your foot....

But of course if you play with other people its not absolutely necessary since other people are carrying the compas, tapping is more of a way to get "inside" the groove, to internalize it and make you feel as comfortable with the 12 beat as any other rhythm.

And also if you play alone with a dancer or singer you are required to keep a steady beat for them to feel relaxed with, and when its time to be quiet with the guitar or just put golpes off and on certain beats, the only common reference between you and them is your foot.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 5:06:07

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

I agree Sonikete, I think it IS real important, and wished I had 100% proof that it is essential for flamenco guitarists to learn. But a couple of my favorite flamenco guitarists, true rhythm masters, are not tapping their foot at all, or at most, inconsistantly, not giving a clear beat reference. Namely I am refering to Manolo Sanlucar and Vicente Amigo. Check out some video of their more rhythm music. I think it is helpful and all like you said, but not an absolute necessity.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 7:03:48

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)

Personally i do it when im practicing at home or play with a singer and with other musicians when i think they are untight so i cant rely on them or if i want to accelerate and give the others a reference to go with.

In the case of Vicente or Sanlucar they have a lot of other musicians around so then there is no point in tapping. And when the music is highly sophisticated or very fast the foot cant keep up with it or becomes too clumsy.

And when its really fast id rather play por bulerias with a very good percussionist or palmas than rely on my own foottapping.

When i teach i make the student first clap, then tap, then play chords on certain beats so the rythm is in the body like a drummer and the hands are free to make music.

I feel its essential but i dont have 100% proof more than all my own teachers did it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 7:16:07

zata

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 13 2006 7:35:03

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 7:34:24

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 7:35:32

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

Yes, thats what i mean zata. Tapping frees you to be more creative and musical.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 7:35:33

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

I feel its essential but i dont have 100% proof more than all my own teachers did it.

Essential" is relevant. It's "essential" to cross the street only when the light turns green. You can cross whenever you want, but it's risky.

Tapping frees up the mind for more creative chores.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 7:36:27

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 7:39:04

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

I remember learning a simple falseta pretty fast getting all the notes right but it somehow didnt sound as good as when my teacher played it and i couldnt figure it out because i played the same notes as my teacher.

Then i got it, the reason he was swinging as hell, and i wasnt, even if i was playing it right, was that his whole body was in the groove and he was marking the compas in a way that he was swinging even when he didnt play one note.

quote:

If you can really feel compas does it really matter where your taps are?

No, it doesnt matter, but its a lot easier when everyone else is tapping in the same place, thats probably why two´s are so common.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 7:41:54

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

You see many guitarists whose foot follows the music...obviously that does no good, you have to set the foot on automatic pilot and make everything fall into place.

The difference between playing the notes one after another, or playing them in iron-clad compás, is so subtle it can hardly be pinned down, but it's the difference between great compás and merely acceptable compás. In Spain no one goes out of compás in the sense of 11 beats, or 13 beats (very rarely), but we talk about people who have great compás or lousy compás - the difference is in the "iron-clad" effect.

An extra added wrinkle is that great compás is always in flux - try put a metronome to some piece you consider rigidly in compás (which was not recorded with a click-track)....you will not be able to make the beats coincide for more than a half-compás or so and will end up staring at the metronome like a cartoon character who can't figure out a certain gadget.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 7:55:32

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 8:02:46

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)

quote:

you have to set the foot on automatic pilot and make everything fall into place.

Exactly, that sums it up perfectly. And its a lot more fun as well, you can try out different ways of phrasing a falseta, improvise with the rhythm and thats when that "rubberband" feeling comes against an "ironclad" compas in the foot.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 8:06:13

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)

The program sure looks very nice.

Lots of female singers. I like female singers.

But why is it never published who plays the guitar. Are guitarists just dogs or what

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 8:12:58

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

Yes, jesus what a program, id like to go. Are there any guitar or cante workshops?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 8:41:49

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)

quote:

If you can really feel compas does it really matter where your taps are?

[annoying Zen mode]
Well, surely the brain is controlling the foot, not the other way round....so in order for that pulse to be expressed as a foot tap or a hand clap, the pulse will already have to be internally perceived correctly.
So if you know or feel where that pulse is...is there any need to tap unless you just want to?
[/annoying Zen mode]

cheers

Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 8:44:21

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

rubberband

säg inte det ordet!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 8:51:07

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

Jag bara jävlas, he he ...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 9:09:26

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

So if you know or feel where that pulse is...is there any need to tap unless you just want to?

Well, its not necessary in order to play, but i think its something that is essential to learn in order to internalize the compas and become a better musician. Even if you then dont use it at all playing with other people.

An example;
play a capirote golpe on 3 Bb (dance counting), be silent the rest of the compas and then play a golpe on 9 and a half A in the end of the next compas.

Thats a whole lot easier to do with the foot going, then you dont even have to count as you probably would if you didnt tap.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 9:13:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

I have seen some older guitarists, biting their teeth in rhythm. Many players have a head nod with certain accents. When working out something new, I use my foot if the metronome is not available or compas loop, or patient palmera. It is helpful for sure. I could play just as evenly without moving or tapping. Even the silence I could keep, but I am "hearing" the rhythm in my head, not just the beat, but all that is the groove going on. But doing the foot or moving in your chair, etc, is part of the feeling, and you do it because it feels good to do it. But yeah, it also transmits to the outside alot of how you are feeling the music. It gives the relationship. Even in a TRUE solo, it transmits something to the audience.

I give students a chance to demonstrate playing in rhythm to metronome or palmas, without having to tap the foot. There are many who have no problem keeping the beat inside. But they are the minority. For the majority of folks, the foot really helps learn how to keep a beat. For folks having a real problem tapping the foot and playing, they tend to not beable to play to a click either.

Oh, and in regards to "iron clad" and putting a metronome against flamenco players, you would be surprised how precise they are if you find the exact tempo.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 10:11:16

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

I have seen some older guitarists, biting their teeth in rhythm.

Yeah, ive seen dancers do that as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 10:16:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

säg inte det ordet!

Ha!, yngvay, jag bara viking jåvajuice "rubbersteen" bjorn bork bork!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 10:22:43

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Ha!, yngvay, jag bara viking jåvajuice "rubbersteen" bjorn bork bork!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 10:24:42

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Oh, and in regards to "iron clad" and putting a metronome against flamenco players, you would be surprised how precise they are if you find the exact tempo.

This is not true, and there are no surprises because I've spent some time investigating this. The metronome will only work with newer recordings made with a claqueta in order to facilitate editing. Records used to be recorded direct, as is, like a live performance, but now imperfections are removed or retouched, instruments added after the fact...none of this can be done without a claqueta.

And it's not a question of "precision", in fact all a claqueta does is make flamenco sound as stale as a disco mix. Take an older recording of someone we might all consider to have a driving, unrelenting rhythm, such as Marote in his recording with Bernarda and Fernanda. It sounds as solid as a brick wall, anyone can dance, do palmas, play along with, or sing to it with no problem, yet there is no way to set a metronome to it.

This is the reason why when you get a guitarist in one room and a singer in another, able to hear each other but unable to see one another, even though both begin in perfect unison, it takes only a couple of beats before each is going down his own rhythmic path. I was at a crowded fiesta in Granada a few months ago...the guitarist was right next to me but there was a slim decorative partition between us and too many people to be able to glimpse one another. I started singing, and in seconds there was no unison...we tried again...again it didn't work. Finally we realized we could see each other's feet, and only by observing each other's beat as marked by the feet were we able to get it together...very edifying experience.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 10:49:05

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Oh, and in regards to "iron clad" and putting a metronome against flamenco players, you would be surprised how precise they are if you find the exact tempo.

Uh oh, deja vu

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 10:53:55

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)

An interesting experiment was carried out by Farruco (the kid) in one of their older shows. "Bulerías galácticas" he called it. Four or five singers in a circle, Farruco in the middle dancing bulerías, no guitar. What's so strange about that? Simply, that not only were there no palmas, but clearly Farruco had ordained no foot-stomping, no finger-snapping, no rhythmic swaying, no head-bobbing or silent thigh-tapping....indeed, not one visual reference to the rhythm other than Farruco's dancing. It was clearly extremely difficult - now and again one of the singers would do silent thigh-taps and Farruco would stand dead still until he stopped. It was astonishing, the dance and cante had all the weightiness and importance of a slow siguiriya, but observers who knew bulerías could feel the inner dynamic - it was a brave and powerful experiment which has not been copied by anyone or repeated by Farruco as far as I know.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 11:00:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)

quote:

And it's not a question of "precision", in fact all a claqueta does is make flamenco sound as stale as a disco mix.

Well, that's your opinion. I disagree totally. Perhaps multitracking can have that problem, but the click itself is not the problem.

quote:

no problem, yet there is no way to set a metronome to it.

Well, they are not from Jerez.

OK, I am only teasing with that one.

quote:

Finally we realized we could see each other's feet, and only by observing each other's beat as marked by the feet were we able to get it together...very edifying experience.

Glad it all came together finally.

quote:

not one visual reference to the rhythm other than Farruco's dancing.

Well the rhythm is IN the cante, if you understand how, and most guitarist accompanyists of baile learn to watch the body as well as the feet for rhythmic cues. Just a couple of words from the first line of cante, and the tempo is right there for everyone who knows it. Still it is a cool idea I think, that the beat is not heard but "felt".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 11:15:44

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)

Pick your favorite old recording you consider to have unshakeable rhythm and you'll see what I mean.

The most solid rhythm, the kind that allows dozens of people to do palmas, jump in and out dancing or singing, is in a constant, though subtle, state of flux. The so-called "nuevo flamenco", which is basically studio flamenco, grew up with the claqueta and percussion (percussionists who don't know cante dwell in their own world of "steady" rhythm and are oblivious to singers' needs, which is why Manolo Soler was so great on the cajón, he knew flamenco inside and out).

Likewise, the singer no longer rules the roost since a profusion of new harmonies from the guitar "lock" the singer into set interpretations. It sounds fine, perhaps even great, and only the individuals actually doing the singing (or dancing) can feel how their wings have been clipped.

Make no mistake, studio flamenco is a deal with the devil: you make magnificent music enjoyed the world over, but sacrifice spontaneity - a boon for guitarists and a bane for singers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 11:35:28

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)

quote:

Tapping frees up the mind for more creative chores.

It's unseemly to quote oneself, but just this morning over breakfast I was watching the Paco de Lucía episode of Rito y Geografía del Cante and he said exactly the same thing: in order to be creative, you must first dominate your techniques. Tapping is part of the technical discipline.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 12:08:07

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Well the rhythm is IN the cante,

Unlike dance and guitar, the voice is not a percussive instrument except in those bouncey-bally Cádiz endings. The rest of the time the cante lays the notes over the tonal or rhythmic base provided by guitar and/or palmas.

Compás in cante arrives to our ears "once removed", after having been sifted through the singer's concept of how he or she wishes to work the compás at any given moment. A common mistake unexperienced accompanists often make is second-guessing the singer's compás, "Oh, I know how that cante goes!", and an unproductive tug-of-war ensues in which the guitarist always comes out on top because he's doing something on every single beat, while the singer only controls a few brief moments. These subtle relationships can't be taught, and must be "self-revealed" in practice.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 12:17:33

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

For folks having a real problem tapping the foot and playing, they tend to not beable to play to a click either.

Keeping compás and making music to a claqueta are as different as screwing and watching a porn movie - it seems related in theory, but in practice, the difference is dramatic.

Needless to say, the former is not only more productive, but more fun

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 12:24:58