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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping.   You are logged in as Guest
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[Poll]

Bulerías basic timekeeping.


Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)?
  28% (19)
"Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)?
  9% (6)
Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)?
  30% (20)
A combination of the above
  31% (21)


Total Votes : 66


(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41) 
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zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

the "core" of flamenco--compas, old-school falsetas, not too much syncopation or complications.


Everything recommended here is solo material. It used to be a given that accompaniment was the place to start in order to internalize compás and get the forms down...only in the last decade is that step being by-passed and beginners are instant soloists.

IMO nothing takes the place of playing for dance classes. Sabicas is famous for having said that in order to play solo flamenco guitar, you must first play 10 years for dance, and another 10 for cante .

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 1:21:21
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 2:53:47
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
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From: Scotland

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest

quote:

Ron - I like your idea about listening to the "minor" guitarists - who do you recommend?


Nealf,
What I mean by "minor" guitarists are those guitarists who are not known Internationally, but appear on albums accompanying not so well known singers. (Internationally).
A lot of these guys are very, very good, but not quite so slick as the top liners, so the technique (and difficulty with) is more exposed.
Can't recommend anyone in particular.... listen to everyone!

I think trying to learn Flamenco guitar by getting the Tabs to some amazing piece by Paco de Lucia and trying to work your way through it bit by bit is a waste of time myself.

But that's just my own opinion.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 7:53:16
 
Ron.M

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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest

quote:

OK question from a very confused beginner to Bulerias - should I, or should I not, count it as follows: 12, 3, 6, 8, 10


Nealf,
I'm no expert, but try out what I said in my last post on this.
Being able to cope with 2's and 3's at the same time is one of the major difficulties.
If you can't keep time with a recording of basic Bulerias cante with guitar and palmas, then you aren't gonna do much better on the guitar, unless you sit and work out every single falseta.
Also the method you've shown above is what Richard calls "a full Gringo compás", which is in fact two half compases so you'll get thrown as soon as the singer adds a half compás.

As Estela says, you're not going to pick this up in a week or two.
It doesn't just click, but if you keep at it then you'll find you can keep time for longer and longer periods.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 8:06:51
 
Escribano

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From: England, living in Italy

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

quote:

Everything recommended here is solo material


Pretty much everyone here is "solo". Personally, I am trying to jam to Capullo's live CD with Diego Amaya and Niño Jero on guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 8:12:26
 
zata

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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest

quote:

OK question from a very confused beginner to Bulerias - should I, or should I not, count it as follows: 12, 3, 6, 8, 10


Nealf, one thing we can all agree on is that bulerías rolls happily along regardless of how or whether anyone counts it. So what we're really talking about is what internal feeling or mindset best reflects the nature of this very complex but devilishly simple compás.

For teacher and student, the 12-count is a quick fix that gives a student the appearance of managing compás..."everyone's a winner" like they say. But the student will eventually and inevitably have to come to terms with the reality of bulerías if he or she is going to interact successfully with others, whether professionally or in informal contexts.

Most people have a very hard time shedding the 12-count or relegating it to its proper level. For this reason my feeling is it's more practical to come to grips with the multiple layers of bulerías from the first day, even though it might take months longer to get it going. In practical terms, you might pat twos with your feet (2-4-6-8-10-12) while playing standard twelves. Just like "rub your head and pat your tummy", at some point the two paths lock together instead of being in conflict.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 9:17:00
 
zata

Posts: 659
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

I think trying to learn Flamenco guitar by getting the Tabs to some amazing piece by Paco de Lucia and trying to work your way through it bit by bit is a waste of time myself.


I agree absolutely, but would recommend playing along with recordings with cante and 'even' baile. Marote playing for Fernanda, Habichuela with Manuela Vargas, Morao or Parrilla with Paquera or Terremoto, Antonio Mairena's bulerías with whoever is playing, Zambo with Moraíto...

Fancy material can be learned later.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 9:23:06
 
zata

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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Escribano

quote:

Pretty much everyone here is "solo". Personally, I am trying to jam to Capullo's live CD with Diego Amaya and Niño Jero on guitar.


Escribano, assuming this isn't your usual wry sense of humor , playing along with Diego Amaya and Capullo's endless bulerías jam is a great way of jumping into compás head first. The old recording "Canta Jerez" has another classic bulería with a variety of singers which is great to play along with. And if you really want to have fun, accompany Miguel Poveda's, Diego Carrasco's or Macanita's lengthy recordings of bulerías without guitar...the compás is iron-clad and you're free to play the chords you think sound best...with no one listening.

Being cante-centric, I assume no one would want to play solo flamenco guitar as an end in itself, but realize that's not true for everyone.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 9:36:19
 
Escribano

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From: England, living in Italy

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

quote:

assuming this isn't your usual wry sense of humor


No, I am jamming to their endless Bulerias.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 12:00:21
 
Mark2

Posts: 1945
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From: San Francisco

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf

OK question from a very confused beginner to Bulerias - should I, or should I not, count it as follows: 12, 3, 6, 8, 10

Yes, you should listen to recordings and try to count as you wrote above. But, you should also try to count these other ways: 12,3,7,8,10 -and the easiest way while playing: 12,2,4,6,8,10 - six simple beats. You need to feel all these. They all happen at one time or another. Also listen to the patterns of the palmas and try to figure out how they fit in the compas. Listen to recordings and try to figure out the basic chord progressions people use to accompany cante. Learn a few simple falsetas and try to play them in compas. Play compas along with recordings while damping the strings-that way you can focus on only compas and accents without thinking about chords and notes. Match the rasquedo patterns with your playing. Practice doing palmas along with the recordings. Finally, get in a dance class as a second guitarist and then as the main guitarist. This is really the only way to learn to accompany dance. All the other stuff without this last step won't get you there. Forget solo records. Listen to stuff with singing, and if you can, find records with dancing too. That's my 2 cents.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 16:42:18
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Mark2

Good post Mark!
You know, when I first saw Paco Peña at Strathclyde University when he was about 26 , maybe 28 years old.
I was totally amazed (as everyone was) by the power of the Bulerías he played.
Now, we're going back to a time when there was zero information about Flamenco except for a few sleeve notes on the back of a Flamenco LP.
One thing I did notice though, was this way that he did toe and heel, toe and heel, which didn't seem to correspond to what he was playing.
I now realize he was doing 2's, but in a way that would always keep him in compás.
Toe was on the 12 beat (in the Gringo compás LOL!)
Heel was on 2
Toe again on 4
And heel on 6
Then toe on 8
Heel on 10
Then toe on 12

Now how many falsetas begin on 4 or 8?

So the guy knew exactly where he was!
12 has to start on a "toe" beat.

With the knowledge of how the Bulerías form took, then twice times three beats was enough.

Think about it.

cheers

Ron

PS A friend brought around a bottle of 10 years Glenmorangie so I'm a bit under the influence at the moment.
Will review it in the morning, but I think that timing's OK.
Actually, all I can hear in my head at the mo' is "Flower of Scotland" LOL!
(Strictly 4/4)

cheers

Ron

(PS Lang mae yer respective lums reek!)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 20:33:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

Just to add to some stuff above, the important thing is no matter how you count or accent, if you are using 12 numbers, understand the symmetry of the phrase. 12,1,2,3,4,5 feels the same as 6,7,8,9,10,11. These two entities don't need to fit together, you can leave one out or repeat the feel of the other one. Saying 12,2,4, is really the same feeling as 6,8,10, regardless if it repeats or not. If it DOES, it seems silly to count "6,7,8,9,10,11-6,7,8,9,10,11", even though that is the feeling. The half compas is where the 12s become a "straight jacket" as Estela says. You don't want to "think" about anything when you are playing.

I teach the student how to play the rhythm and to tap their foot, long before I tell them the counts the silly dancers like to use for choreography. Once they can actually play something, then the need for "where the counts line up in the music" makes sense and becomes useful. If you are just learning, forget "counting". Learn a strumming pattern first or how to do palmas to the music. Learn to tap your foot and play w/ a metronome.

When you are ready for a dance class, the teacher may be counting so much you will have no choice but to "ingrain" the counts against what you are playing. "Siete Ocho Nueve Diez Y!" Man you will be sick of it after a while!

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2004 21:23:54
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2004 1:14:01
Guest

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

Nealf

Just a few things. Listen and listen and listen to bulerias. Try to learn how to do palmas, then play a little with CD's, and dont use to much time on discussions like this one. They end up being some kind of Platon/Socrates discussion, and just twist your brain.

This with saying that you only learn by accompanying, might be kind of correct, but also absurd. It sounds like you can just walk out the door an accompany some singer or dancer and thats it. some people might have to move 1000 km. to find one, and even though I live in Andalusia, I cannot do it. We live in the year 2005 and this includes the flamenco scene. We play soloist flamenco because we live soloist lifes, and the flamenco will change with that, like everything else. You may like it or not, but its a fact, because it already happened.

And last. When you guys/girls conclude that everything in 3/4 is walz, I have to put up a big protest. 3/4 is just a way of counting, and you can count 3/4 in many ways, including walz. Its like saying that everything in a 12 compas is Buleria, or that everything in 4/4 is hardcore thrash metal.

Saludos y feliz compás de bulería
Anders
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2004 8:18:37
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest

I agree!!!!!! It´s a very good pm
Mery Xmass to all of you!!!

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2004 6:57:51

Carlos Bedoya

Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 15 2005
From: San Juan, Puerto Rico

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria: You tap your foot three times, corresponding to 12, 2, 4. Then you do it again, corresponding to 6, 8, 10.



I also see it this way; particularly for bulerias de jerez. 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10
Accenting 12 and 6. This helps you know where you are in the 12 count cycle at all times.

An exercise would be to say:
do un dos tres cuatro cinco seis siete ocho nueve diez un

as you do a one strong foot and two claps:

12-2-4- / 6-8-10-
F-c-c- / F-c-c-

So you’re thinking in 6-6. This helps you adapt to a cantaor.

A practice loop could be.

12-2-4- / 6-8-10-
F-c–c-/ F-c-c-

12-2-4- / 678910-
F-c-c- / FcccC-

That second part of the compas (678910) is where you usually do remates. But if for some reason you have to do it some where else (and it happens) feeling the groove in 6's helps.

Having said this, I find myself using all the poll methods depending at what’s happening at the moment and compas accents (12, 3, 6, 8, 10) are generally very important. Its not so much how you are thinking about all this as much as how you are feeling these accents and the 12-2-4 / 6-8-10- pulse that runs through the music.

I hope this helps someone, especially if they are new to flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2005 17:19:39
 
zata

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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Carlos Bedoya

quote:

I also see it this way; particularly for bulerias de jerez.


"Bulerías de Jerez" is not a compás, but rather refers to the traditional short verses in phrygian as opposed to cuplé, songs, major key ditties, etc. that may be sung to the compás of bulería.

At least that's the way the term is used in Jerez.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2005 17:27:58

Carlos Bedoya

Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 15 2005
From: San Juan, Puerto Rico

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

quote:

I also see it this way; particularly for bulerias de jerez.


"Bulerías de Jerez" is not a compás, but rather refers to the traditional short verses in phrygian as opposed to cuplé, songs, major key ditties, etc. that may be sung to the compás of bulería.

At least that's the way the term is used in Jerez.


I did not say it was but thank you for the information.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2005 20:39:08
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 7:35:21
 
zata

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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest

Hi Romerito:

I can't actually find what message you're addressing, but something got lost in the shuffle because you say it's like "people who argue over whether African-Americans are the inventors of Jazz", but I scrupulously avoid "origin of" discussions as a waste of time, always preferring to talk about the music itself.

Lately I've been investigating the phenomenon of dissonance in Jerez singers, another topic people hate me for "and yet it turns" as Galileo said (or was it another dude?). I'd welcome anyone's comments on this, probably better as a new string.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 7:53:05
 
el ted

 

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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

Thanks for bringing this thread to the surface Romerito. I need to print this off and re-read it very s l o w l y.... It looks packed with interesting stuff!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 7:59:49
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

its funny , i see the numbers but none mean nothing to me anymore, it all comes from the inside.

i cant even think how i do it anymore

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 9:11:06
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

I agree, This thread is very interesting, It was 2 years ago and in the light of the last discussion on the same theme, I find it to be a good idea to read it for everyone interested in the subject.

A lot of Estellas inputs are just so clear to me now.

BTW, good to see you again Estella, Its been a while, no?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 10:27:10
 
sonikete

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From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Florian

At a certain level it becomes meaningless once the crutches are gone. I think beginners should choose one approach first and get comfortable with that and then learn another.

The important thing is to be able to keep a steady beat with the foot no matter which approach.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 10:31:40
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

quote:

The important thing is to be able to keep a steady beat with the foot no matter which approach.


I still find it to be more important to be able to keep a steady beat with the guitar

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 13:46:38
 
sonikete

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From: Sweden

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

quote:

I still find it to be more important to be able to keep a steady beat with the guitar


Sure, but i never seen a guitarist who is really tight with the foot but really off in the playing at the same time

I dont know how other people do it but i didnt feel that i got the hang of the compas until i was able to keep a steady beat with the foot and could concentrate on the phrasing without having to worry about wobbling in the rythm.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 17:32:34
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata

I just dont see the impotance of the tapping, you can tap and be way of compas, the feet cheat as much as every other part of the body.

I´ve seen heayy tappers playing 11 and 13 beat bulerias and solea 7-8-9 in 4 (7-8-9-X-10-11-12 ) and I´ve seen people not tapping anything being totally in compás.

The compás is inside. (I think)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 18:17:16
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest

Good god that was frustrating to read through again! I would just like to say, I still agree with myself!

Tapping is not necessary, but it helps both the other folks you play with know where your feeling the beat, and the audience too, and helps to work out falsetas and things when practicing at home. When I learn a falseta of Paco or Tomatito say, and have the video reference, I can take a reading of how he feels the notes relative to his foot tap. Tons of info right there, you don't need a transcription or palmas backing. It is a visual reference and helps me pick things up real fast. Learning how to play "off" the foot is helpful, but not really necessary.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 18:56:28
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 19:53:22
 
zata

Posts: 659
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest

No one can afford to overlook compás. Over here everyone beats in twos most of the time, it's the only "universal" beat for bulerías. Beating in twelves is a counter-productive circus trick that makes for spastic phrasing and allows the tempo to escalate.

Wanted to say hi to Anders...so busy, there's no time for anything.

Anyone coming over for the Festival de Jerez? The program looks good this year.

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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2006 22:13:29
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