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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
al.golpe IS the taping on the golpeador. 1 2 4 5 7 8 etc Or the palmas that folows that pattern. I thought the term came from that. Otherwise how can there be al-golpe?!`if if nobodys doing the rythm.??
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
quote:
al.golpe IS the taping on the golpeador. 1 2 4 5 7 8 etc Or the palmas that folows that pattern. I thought the term came from that. Otherwise how can there be al-golpe?!`if if nobodys doing the rythm.??
That's the non-Spanish usage of the term, obviously construed from a literal translation of the word "golpe". I posted the explanation "from the horse's mouth" for why "bulerías al golpe" is nothing more than "soleá por bulerías" but have no idea how to locate the message (is there a search function here?).
In a nutshell this is a cante developed by the flamenco families of Santiago...Sorderas, Zambos, Sotos, Agujetas', etc...which they sang at home or in the 'tabancos' to compás knuckled on wooden tables, without so much as palmas, hence the name "al golpe".
Later on guitar was applied. This is not speculation about unprovable ancient history, but eye-witness first person testimony from representatives of the families responsible for the creation of this cante sometime around or after WWI. When I started out around 1960 no one spoke of bulería por soleá or soleá por bulería, it was still *that* novel. One piece of evidence is that Perico del Lunar, who aimed to include examples of every single cante in his famous anthology, including such rareties as marianas and jaberas, failed to include this cante. And he was from Jerez!
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
quote:
quote:
When they say 'Bulerias al golpe' they don't mean BpS. I first heard the term a couple of years ago on one of the forums and finally figured out that that's what they call it when the guitarist taps out 1-2, 4-5, ...... on the golpeador, as a lot of older Bulerias were commonly played. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Phil, you are wrong, and I wouldn't say that so black-and-whitely if I weren't 200% sure.
Estela, I should have been clearer. That first 'they' in my above quote is in reference to the people on this and other forums, who are mostly guitarists and understand 'al golpe' as I described it above. I did not mean Flamencos from Jerez, as should be clear from previous posts I made. Phil
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
Wow, this is a confusing thread. Sometimes you people really know how to make things confusing. What is this? a discussion about counting bulerias? the solea por bulería family? personal comments on postings that does not exist?
I count a lot of different things. The compas in general is on the beats, and very often falsetas in 6/8 beginning on 12. I will have a look at the counting 2 idea. I like it. I´ll have to do it my way, because a 11 or more pages thread doesnt help me. I havent got the time for crawling through all this....
Or maybe Estella will teach us if we pass by the Utrera, Moron area??????
Anders.
(BTW, I´m sorry to hear about this nutcase writing hate E-mails. Dont take it serious. This forum was very much asleep, and now it´s a lot more alive which is very good)
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
Hi This is a subject that has fascinated me too, how to count a bulerias!? LOL...Good question!!!
Al Golpe as I learned it was as has been said 1,2-4,5-7,8-10,11 and involved tapping al golpe the compas, whilst playing the guitar...I have a video of Paco De lucia playing his famous almorima bulerias and he actually taps his foot in the above rhythm 1,2-4,5-7,8-10,11 all the way throughout the piece!!
Have any of you people tried that? I have and it is very difficult so I settle for a steady (which is very common of westerners) 2 beat..IE: 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10; and that is how I tap my foot, whilst playing complex bulerias rhythms on top..
I dont think this is the way though as many falsetas and rhythmic sections require a different feel...
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to musicalgrant)
Don't go there Grant!!
This was hacked to death a few months ago, running into 10 pages of sometimes heated argument and causing one member to resign and delete all his posts.
Look at Page 2 on the member's forum under "Todd's Latest Bulería".
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Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M)
Hey Grant, So another one who counts in twos. Like Ron said when this was suggested by Estela ( who does not need to count her bulerias and it is not her theory but as an acceptable and oft used teaching method ) and one member went awol, claimed an Estela conspiricay and deleted all his posts.
Obviously he was over the top and this should not stop us from discussing compás or anything flamenco.
I say whatever works for you is totally acceptable, and the best bit comes when you dont need to count any more you just feel it.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
Kate,
I’ve had it with you and Estela! Anybody that knows anything about flamenco counts Buleria in 2 and 1/2’s!! I don't get this two's thing at all. 2 and 1/2's are the easiest. You just tap your foot on the upbeat of every third beat and then you overlay that with taps on the downbeat of 3, 6, 8, 10 and 12. What's so hard about that? LOL! Did I ever tell you I used to be a plate spinner on the Ed Sullivan show? How do I delete all my messages?!!! I'm out of here!!!!
So how you doing sweetheart? I talked to my contact here in Portland a couple of weeks ago that you and I discussed. She said it's been really hard to get enough people to her shows to make it pay. So it looks like the West Coast could be a tough go to put something together.
How’s your young protégé doing? Do we need to do another fundraiser?
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Patrick)
Hi Pat,
Very funny would love to hear you counting 2 1/2 and plate spinning at the same time.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Patrick
So how you doing sweetheart? I talked to my contact here in Portland a couple of weeks ago that you and I discussed. She said it's been really hard to get enough people to her shows to make it pay. So it looks like the West Coast could be a tough go to put something together.
How’s your young protégé doing? Do we need to do another fundraiser?
I'm doing just fine and concentrating on Emilio's album, forming record label and seeking distribution deals. We may have one for America which would be good.
Thanks for trying with your Portland contact, and thanks for the feedback. She's right its tough to make it pay.
As for Andrés, our protege, I had a call from him yesterday and he's been invited back for another 6 months with Mario Maya. He's delighted and appears to have a grant to pay for half, mind you they said that last time but he never got a euro. So once again all donations accepted to help him out. The course starts in March so will post nearer the time and let everyone know what is happening with him. Hopefully we can help him again.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
Hey Ron, I think you are missing an option in your poll, which would be 12-3-6-9. I personally do a "combo" of that or the 12-2-4 you listed, depending on what the feel requires.
I unfortunatley wasted a small portion of my life reading through that thread you mentioned where Estela had everyone frustrated. There are different ways to feel compound meter (3, 6, 12, beats and divisions), and the cool thing is that two different people can feel it differently and still be together.
The "2's" are actually indicating a bar of 3/4 time (quarter note at 100-130bpm), and that is the typical feel in Jerez, so she was actually right, though not crystal w/ her explaination. Two bars of that is "one compas". The term "medio compas" implies the compas is actually longer than 6 beats, but you know a lot of folks don't get the half compas once they have 12,3,6,8,10 ingrained. It is as easy as "dropping a bar", but it takes people a while to feel that. Any music in 3/4 can be re-written in 6/8, where the eighth notes are played at the same speed. This changes the feel, but in bulerias it is not "wrong" to feel it either way.
The two feels exist in bulerias simulataneously or back-to-back. And like that Andy guy might have said (I only got from someone who quoted him), you might have to change the feel depending on the situation. I hope he doesn't get all bent out of shape over that silly arguement, and returns to the board.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo, I know you meant well, but what you surmised about twos is not what I was talking about, nor is it a "Jerez thing". I don't think I've got any words left to explain it except to repeat it's the glue that holds all the other possibilities in place and allows you to not have to worry about being in compás, which is the single most important thing in order to have fun and relax in bulerías.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
Sorry not to be clear, but I felt 100-130 bpm would make it obvious. Wow, even when someone is supporting you, you still want to argue! Anyway, Zata:
12,2,4 are "twos" no? If not than you are really confused/confusing. 6,8,10 would add up to make a full gringo compas, no? So as a musician I recognize this as two bars of 3/4, w/ eight note subdivision: 12=1 1=& 2=2 3=& 4=3 5=& 6=1, etc.
A palmero in jerez will alternate feet on the beats (1,2,3) and clap all eighths except the down beat, but also accent the up beats(&'s), especially the & of 2. Tangos or rumba is felt the same except w/ 2 beats instead of 3. Pretty simple. The palmas set up the synchopation against the beat, and that is what I as a player listen to. And yes, this is the feel that CAN underly all bulerias if you want, because it also allows you to feel 6/8 time or the dotted quarter as the beat, two dotted quarters per bar: 12=1 1 2 3=2 4 5
The glue of any type of "compas" is the groove or feel of the phrasing, not necessarily the abstract mathematical way you describe/count it. The term "twos" doesn't mean anything really in a bulerias to me. It does to YOU, and therefore I am translating it into musical language I understand and maybe someone else will. And once you have subdivision, you open up a door to synchopation, polyrhythm, and different counts and feels, any of which are correct if the groove or feel is there. Accept there are different angles and you will find agreement w/ your arguements.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo, I haven't the vaguest idea what your message means but it looks a lot more complicated than "beat one beat and not the next", a.k.a. "twos". In fact the latter concept is what computers work on: off-on (they tell me ), and look at what they're capable of.
Put another way, flamencos all over Andalucia (not only in Jerez) are beating away in twos, but very few of them would understand what you wrote, even though it surely expresses the same thing.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
Yeah it is confusing because you don't know time signatures in music. For ME numbers = beats. Here try this.
Rumba or Tangos=1&2&. Tap your foot on 1,2, clap"&2&". That is it. Now, same speed: Bulerias= 1&2&3&. Tap your foot on 1,2,3, clap "&2&3&". Get it?
For both you emphasize the "&'s" w/ the palmas, especially the "&" after beat 2.
Both examples can be looked at as a "half compas", but are in fact the fundamental beat patterns. There are different ways to feel numbers, and rhythm is simple math. For me, most rhythms are easy once you know where your quarter note or beat is, how many are repeating in a single phrase, and the tempo(bpm).
Arguing about what to name the subdivision is just semantics. People get confused about the term "two's" because you don't define them. Is it 1,2,1,2,1,2 (3/4)? Or 1,2,3, 2,2,3(6/8)? Or 1,2,3,4,5,6, 2,2,3,4,5,6(12/8)? That is why if you introduce "&" as a subdivision, it is easy to distinguish the NUMBER of beats in a cycle w/ actual NUMBERS.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo:
The object of numerical analysis is to simplify complex structures that would not be understood otherwise. It makes no sense to pass from units of two to lengthy analysis.
The two-beat structure is not linked to palmas, foot tapping, half, whole or quarter compases, nor to geographical areas. Numbers are not beats unless you choose to make them so. Even people who never learned to count understand a binary unit which might be called 1-2, O-X, on-off, yin-yang, or receive no name whatsoever.
A fairly convincing alternative is to ignore twos, but then you risk "dysfunctional compas" as we heard in a sample months ago that counted out to twelves but was out of compás. I think that might have been a guitar solo so there were no victims other than potential listeners.
This is an apt moment to relay something amazing and revealing about the mechanics of rhythmic interaction that I recently observed. For several years I've been wondering how musicians from other cultures who have had no former contact with flamenco slip effortlessly into major groups and appear to be on top of the compás...it makes you wonder why you (I, anyone) spent so many years getting it just right when clearly these people do fine on stage after a brief orientation.
I was in the front row of at a flamenco recital given by Carmelilla Montoya with traditional singers, dancers, guitarists and palos. Sitting next to me, by chance, was a top cajon player, I don't know his name but you see him with many major groups (not Manolito Soler who had left us by then). This is a person you see on stage practically getting high on bulerias compas, a real pro, brilliant.
As the show progressed he was compulsively, instinctively beating the edge of his seat in cajon-player position, arms stretched front between the knees, and I became fascinated with the genius of his combinations. But I soon noticed he was slipping out of sync with the live performance we were watching. He stopped and picked it up again. In two or three compases he was again out and stopped to pick it up. This happened again and again and he was clearly getting frustrated although Carmelilla and group were doing the most straightforward bulerías compás.
So what was happening? Obviously the man knows the ins and outs of compás. There is only one possibility: when he is a member of a group, the rest of the people are following the rhythm he sets, and this gives a very convincing illusion of flamenco. When he is an observer rather than participant, no one follows him and he lacks the mental tools to partake of the real compás the dancers, singers and guitarists have no trouble sharing amongst themselves.
This is the realm where numerical analysis is of no use, and a strong binary pulse would have carried the cajon-player effortlessly along with the flamenco tide with no risk of drowning.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Hey Ron, I think you are missing an option in your poll, which would be 12-3-6-9. I personally do a "combo" of that or the 12-2-4 you listed, depending on what the feel requires.
Hi Richard, I don't want to get in between you and zata here, but just a quick note to say I did think of that, but didn't want to confuse the issue even more. LOL! Generally I tap a mixture of 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12, 3, 6, 9 depending on the falseta. One thing I can say though, is that I'm sorry I learned this 12, 3, 6, 8, 10 thing for Bulerias as you've really got to unlearn it again to play with any degree of rhythm IMO.
OK, I'll get out of the way now for Round 4...Ding...Ding!....LOL!
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Rumba or Tangos=1&2&. Tap your foot on 1,2, clap"&2&". That is it. Now, same speed: Bulerias= 1&2&3&. Tap your foot on 1,2,3, clap "&2&3&". Get it?
In this particular scheme, it's not clear whether you meant to indicate a palmada on all the &'s, or clapping twice for each beat ("&2&3&") with the exception of the beat you label as number 1.
In either case, this would be a palmero's technique (counter-palmas), and not an indication of the structure of the compás, just as a dancer's redoble, a singer's flourish or a guitarist's rasgueado are techniques, not the structure as such.
Neither foot-tapping nor clapping are necessary ingredients in compás, the proof being that guitarists don't clap, dancers don't tap and singers do whatever they want.
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From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
You know, these numbers flying all over the place are extremely confusing, but a simple recording would make them very clear. Richard (or zata), if either of you have the time, if you could do up a quick recording explaining what you mean in the context of a typical bulerias compas, I think we would all understand very quickly what you mean. If possible, that would be an incredible help to us all.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
if either of you have the time, if you could do up a quick recording explaining what you mean in the context of a typical bulerias compas, I think we would all understand very quickly what you mean.
Miguel, Richard seems to be describing a specific type of bulerías and perhaps he would post something we could all hear.
I'm just noting an intrinsic facet common to all bulerías, so there isn't anything I could post. Perhaps the best representation is if you watch a cuadro por fiesta and notice how their feet are marking twos most of the time, regardless of what is being sung, played or danced. One person or another might momentarily lapse into threes or a combination of twos and threes to highlight a certain moment, and then twos take a back seat (without actually disappearing), but the person quickly returns to automatic pilot, which is twos.
That's the essence of bulerías in a nutshell: the layers of rhythm are always in flux and tension, the play of twos against threes.
All this talk, I need a fix, where's my Canta Jerez CD....?
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
I was just trying to add to Ron's poll, not cause an arguement or give a math lesson. This really is not a big deal. The confusion is always "counts" verses "beats". Zata, what you call "tapping in twos" I call "tapping in 3/4 time", and what you call tapping in 3's, I call "tapping in 6/8 time". That is it. If some folks reading don't understand time signature 3/4, quarter note = 100bpm, that is ok no big deal. I am just pointing out that there are different ways to describe the same rhythm, if all you are using is numbers.
And Ron, there is nothing wrong w/ the 12,3,6,8,10, as long as you recognize the symmetry there. You have 6/8, and 3/4 back to back. Two bars. One is not more important than the other, they can replace each other, occur simultaneously or you can drop one. The eighth note is constant and that is the groove. You can choose to feel 6/8 music as synchopation in a 3/4 bar, or vice versa. Both are "correct". That is bulerias to ME.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
It's official....I don't understand again
I don't know what it is with me. I CAN'T COUNT bulerias for some stupid reason!!! I can start it out....but a couple of rounds of 12 and after a while I botch it up.
I CAN tap it out without thinking about numbers. When I do this I DON'T fall out.
I don't get it......I swear I'm numerically challenged
Counting compas has always been a huge source of frustration and distraction for me. When I don't count, things go reasonably well. When I do, it all falls apart. I don't get it. I can't be the only one, others must experience this as well?!?!?!?
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From: England, living in Italy
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Jamey)
quote:
I don't get it......I swear I'm numerically challenged
Me too, I think some can count better than others, the rest have to use feel and familiarity. I prefer the latter and am working at "feeling" the compas, rather than counting it. beyond learning a new falseta, of course.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
Hi everyone
So here we are again, just 6 month later. Thats cool. I like cyclic movements (like bulerías) Some 15 posts above I mentioned that I would like to learn this 2 thing. So that I did, and thanks to Estella who started all this, I now feel free in my bulería. I love counting 2. I must say though, that it is some kind of polyritmic experience, but since I was trained in doing that many years back, small problem. You can do some exercises, like tapping the 2 (12-2-4-6-8-10) with your feet, and clapping the "official" compas (12-3-6-8-10) at the same time. This will give you the groove that very often is absent. This combination works perfect in normal compas de rasgueado playing, and the pure counting in 2 works very well in a lot of falsetas, especially more modern ones, and everyone should learn it, because Estella is right, it does give a good pulse BUT..... there are some problems. Falsetas which are clearly devided into 3 can be obstructed by counting in 2. Moraito plays a lot in three, he even makes bulerias-vals. These kind of falsetas cant be counted as the (12-3-6-8-10) system either, but only in 3 (12..3..6..9..) There are lots of them, and sometimes you find falsetas that have parts in 2 and others in 3. (PDL has got some). Another problem is that I mentioned this to some dancers, and they just looked at me with this so wellknown expression "que guiry más tonto" (What a stupid gringo) They are so stucked into counting their 12-2-4-6-8-10, that they totally lack the capacity of "letting go" and some guiry is not going to lean them anything. But these are not very high level dancers, and they never dance to falsetas, and do not know how to do palmas to them either, so when they obstruct some guitarists falseta with their 12-2-4-6-8-10, it's always the stupid guitarists fault. I do understand Ricardos posts, but it is a bit of an intellectual way of understanding bulerías, and from what I've understood, and I agree, Estella is talking about groove, pulse, body feeling. Everything non intellectual.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Jamey)
quote:
When I don't count, things go reasonably well. When I do, it all falls apart. I don't get it. I can't be the only one, others must experience this as well?!?!?!?
Jamey, counting is a handy way of analyzing bulerías for people who can't get it from just listening, normally anyone who hasn't grown up with it.
This same handy tool turns into an impediment once you get past a certain point, and most non-Spaniards have to struggle to free themselves from it.
If you hear yourself on tape and it's in compás, forget counting.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Jamey)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jamey I don't know what it is with me. I CAN'T COUNT bulerias for some stupid reason!!! I can start it out....but a couple of rounds of 12 and after a while I botch it up.
I CAN tap it out without thinking about numbers. When I do this I DON'T fall out.
You know that bit in Star Wars where Obi Wan is teaching Luke to fight wit a Light Sabre, and he tells him to put on that blindfold thingy and 'feel' where that zappy thing is?
Stretch out with your feelings, Jamey :-)
Seriously, counting is only good to explain rhythmical structures, and to have arguments about them . You couldn't possibly count your way into compas when you actually play or accompany, etc it would be nuts.
Look at it this way - everyone knows a 12 bar blues in E, right? I bet you could jam along a 12 bar blues with somone and you'd know exactly were you were at any time, and you'd know exactly when to return to the E and start again. Would you need to count the beats or the bars? Nope. It such a familiar rhythm structure you don't need to and in fact it would take away the fun if you did (and imagine trying to improvise a solo and count at the same time. Ouch)
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would love to hear you counting 2 1/2 and plate spinning at the same time. 
), and look at what they're capable of. 
. You couldn't possibly count your way into compas when you actually play or accompany, etc it would be nuts. 
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