Cedar vs Spruce tops

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Güiro

Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 22 2008
From: Colorado

Cedar vs Spruce tops

Can anyone explain the difference between these woods? Is one generally louder than the other?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 12:27:10

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

Hy güiro

The two woods are quite different in regards to their pyhisical and tonal properties.

Soundwise it can be said that cedar has it's own distinct sound. I don't think that cedar is louder than spruce, it just sounds more mature as from the beginning on. Guitars with sprucetops in turn require to be broken inn.
Sprucetop guitars will develop with time and become more resonant and highly responisve especially in the trebles if the guitar was fairly well built. Cedar tops do not require a braking inn period but soundwise they remain almost stable.
Cedartops usually produce a darker sound. Cedar sounds dryer to me than spruce and it is also less dynamic.

Cedar is less stiff than spruce both lenght- and crosswise. Cedartops are therefore built beefier than sprucetops on most guitars. I believe that the greater thickness of a cedar top requires a relatively fine bracing in order not to kill the responsiveness of the guitar. I have a cedar top negra with a 2,6mm top and a rather beefy bracing. Compared to my sprucetop blancas it's hard to get sound out of that guitar. Much more forced playing is needed to produce a good flamenco sound on that guitar. Maybe that's the reason why a sevillan flamenco player sold that guitar.

I know it's a matter of taste but i prefere a good sprucetop guitar over a cedar top guitar due to the easy responsiveness, the clearness, the dynamics and the
trebles.

Cedar however has it's advantages for the use in climatically less favoured areas of this world. Especially air humidity is toxic to any sprucetop guitar while cedar remains relatively stable even in such places.

I'm currently building a cedar top negra jus't to find out if i could build a better negra than the one i have purchased form Valeriano Bernal.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 14:43:04

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Güiro

Can anyone explain the difference between these woods? Is one generally louder than the other?

Personally I don't think one is louder than the other. Describing sound is such a nebulous endeavor it's difficult to find a way to compare. Here's a link to a customer playing one of our recent cedar top blancas perhaps you can get an idea of what cedar can sound like from it. I had trouble just clicking on it and had to paste it into the header on internet explorer.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 14:48:36

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

john, that sounds amazing!

if you were to do a blind test on me with two guitars, one spruce, the other cedar, i probably couldn't tell the difference.

i'm assuming it has more to do with what the builder does with the wood than actually what kind of wood it is.

i think i've read that grisha plays a cedar top:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 15:37:41

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87
if you were to do a blind test on me with two guitars, one spruce, the other cedar, i probably couldn't tell the difference.

i'm assuming it has more to do with what the builder does with the wood than actually what kind of wood it is.

The sound quality on that video clip is (typical of youtube) of fairly poor quality but I think you can easily tell that the guitar is not "dark" sounding. That guitar has remarkably brilliant trebles and throaty basses. I have not been able to achieve that sound with spruce but other makers certainly have. Perhaps it's because I live in the heart of Red Cedar country and have access to the highest quality cedar that I am admittedly biased toward cedar top guitars.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 15:50:26

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to jshelton5040)

i've read that good cedar is more abundant than good spruce. is this true?
i feel like there's a "stigma" against cedar in the flamenco world.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 16:09:34

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

John,

Thank you for the insight. Makes me want to try cedar on my next flamenco.

A couple of questions, please;

1. What do YOU look for in cedar for a top? Grains per inch, tap tone... Can you explain?

2. The guitar top in the youtube link appears very light colored. I'm assuming you used an orange shellac flake, but the top still looks almost like spruce. A certain kind of cedar?

Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 16:10:52

Güiro

Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 22 2008
From: Colorado

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to jshelton5040)

Is one wood generally darker in color than the other? Is it possible to tell what type of wood a guitar top has by looking at a photo?
I have a Amalio Burguet 2f that has a darker colored top and was wondering if it was cedar or spruce. I can't recall what type of wood the top has but I really like the way it sounds. Here is a photo of my guitar. What do you guys think?

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 17:39:47

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

Güiro,

That's cedar. More reddish/brown in color.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 18:05:04

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to jshelton5040)

I can't tell the difference between that and a spruce top guitar..

sounds awesome tho!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 19:12:13

Güiro

Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 22 2008
From: Colorado

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Ramón)

Cool, thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 19:23:21

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Armando)

quote:

I have a cedar top negra with a 2,6mm top and a rather beefy bracing.

I'm planning to build a cedar/rosewood negra soon. I was wondering about the bracing. Would it be an advantage to use spruce bracing, since its stiffer? Would this mean you could use a slightly thinner top than you otherwise would?

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Kevin Richards

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2009 23:01:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

Westen red Cedar and Spruce are two VERY good top woods. None is better than the other. They sound different, but its not so that spruce is treblyer etc. In fact Cedar can have VERY strong trebles and lots of bite. I agree that cedar sounds better when new and that spruce takes longer time to open up. One backdraw is that cedar is soft, so dents, etc tend to be deep. Yes cedar is softer both cross and legth wise, but its also lighter and this equals things. You just build a little bit thicker.
Güiro, your guitar looks like a cedar top blanca.
2,6mm is thick IMO. I work cedar a little bit thinner on flamenco guitars. Around 2,4 - 2,5 and I brace them as I do my spruce top guitars. I like cedar a lot. Right now I´m building a cedar top blanca with a soundport.
Wetern red cedar is a very good material for building canoes as well. Nice wood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2009 5:06:47

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

i've read that good cedar is more abundant than good spruce. is this true?
i feel like there's a "stigma" against cedar in the flamenco world.

Hard to say. There are whole forests made up of primarily spruce trees but cedar seems to require a more specialized environment. Usually it's found in wetter areas, lowlands, along streams and rivers. One advantage of cedar is that the trees tend to grow straight rather than twisted like spruce so there is nowhere near the problem with run out; however most cedar is not very stiff and to achieve the best tone with those almost shocking brilliant trebles requires a very stiff top. That type of cedar is definitely not common especially if you want uniform pale color suitable for flamenco guitars. Consider though that if a harvestable tree of the right dimension with the above attributes is found it can provide a lifetime supply for a single luthier.

Regarding the rarity of good spruce. Suffice it to say that Susan and I have spent days driving logging roads in Engelmann spruce forests looking for one straight tree of the right dimension. Usually after a week of camping out and searching we would return home with nothing but sore muscles.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2009 6:36:46

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

The most famous flamenco player who preferes to play on cedar top negras is Manolo Sanlúcar.

See him playing with together with Paco.

Interestingly: Paco plays his spruce top negra from Conde Hermanos while Manolo plays his Ramirez cedar top negra as known from his earlier years.

Another intersting combination is a spruce top blanca. I have heard canons of flamenco guitars with this combination.

One of those canons was Manolo Francos cedar top blanca built by Miguel Rodriguez Jr. Unfortunately the youtube video has been deleted due to copyright issues.

jshelton5040

I like your cedar top guitar. It looks nice and sounds even better. That's a completely different sound compared to the cedar top guitar that i have. The guitar seems to be easy to play and very responsive. I hope the one i'm bulding will result similar to this one.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2009 12:02:12

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2009 12:09:44

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

The most famous flamenco player who preferes to play on cedar top negras is Manolo Sanlúcar.

See him playing together with Paco.

Interestingly: Paco plays his spruce top negra from Conde Hermanos while Manolo plays his Ramirez cedar top negra as known from his earlier years.

Another intersting combination is a spruce top blanca. I have heard canons of flamenco guitars with this combination.

One of those canons was Manolo Francos cedar top blanca built by Miguel Rodriguez Jr. Unfortunately the youtube video has been deleted due to copyright issues.

jshelton5040

I like your cedar top guitar. It looks nice and sounds even better. That's a completely different sound compared to the cedar top guitar that i have. The guitar seems to be easy to play and very responsive. I hope the one i'm bulding will result similar to this one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2009 12:10:48

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

jshelton5040

I like your cedar top guitar. It looks nice and sounds even better. That's a completely different sound compared to the cedar top guitar that i have. The guitar seems to be easy to play and very responsive. I hope the one i'm bulding will result similar to this one.

The action is set to 2.5mm at the 12th fret (6th string) and could actually go a little lower. It's very easy to play. I don't think the customer will mind if I include a small portion of the note he sent me when after he received it. I hope you don't mind a little bit of promotion for Shelton-Farretta. Here's an excerpt from of his note:

"I really thank you from the bottom, no matter what i say, words can not justify how good is your guitar, recently i played a Conde Hermanos of a friend of mine , but it was nothing like this monster that got from you!!.... "

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2009 15:05:00

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Here's a link to a customer playing one of our recent cedar top blancas perhaps you can get an idea of what cedar can sound like from it. I had trouble just clicking on it and had to paste it into the header on internet explorer.

John,

Wow. That's all I gotta say.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2009 16:56:22

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Armando)

quote:

The guitar seems to be easy to play and very responsive.

Out of all the guitars I've had in my hands I don't recall one being easier to play than a Shelton-Farretta. It was also very lightweight and very comfortable. I could sit and play that thing for hours.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2009 16:58:31

Aadi

Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 30 2009

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

The action is set to 2.5mm at the 12th fret (6th string) and could actually go a little lower.

I assume this requires exacting control of neck geometry and relief. What's your method? Do you plane/scrape a specific relief into the neck/fretboard or are you using something akin to the StewMac neck jig to measure relief under tension?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2009 18:10:26

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

Most guitars can go down to 2,5mm or even lower if they are well built and you use a lot of time on the neck and frets. Such a low setup can be god when you play alone or with just a singer, But all the guitars that I´ve tried with such a low setup dies when you are in a crowdy peña full of tiles, spanish expresso machines etc.
For these circumstances its better to have a setup around 2,8mm or even more if you have a "heavy" right hand.

John, your guitar sounds very nice. It has this very typical cedar ring in the trebles. I like that myself, but some players really dislike it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2009 0:55:36

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

But all the guitars that I´ve tried with such a low setup dies when you are in a crowdy peña full of tiles, spanish expresso machines etc.
For these circumstances its better to have a setup around 2,8mm or even more if you have a "heavy" right hand.

Anders, I've been accused of having extremely heavy hands. Perhaps that's the result of many years of accompanying dancers and singers with no microphone. You are certainly right that when the ambient noise level reaches a certain point the loudest guitar cannot cut through. That's when you either put the guitar away or switch to amplification. Of course if you've had enough glasses of fino you might not even notice

quote:

John, your guitar sounds very nice. It has this very typical cedar ring in the trebles. I like that myself, but some players really dislike it.

That is certainly a fact. You can't please everybody, many players do not like the sound of cedar particularly in the classical realm. I decided long ago that there was no point in trying to please everybody so I just try to please myself.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2009 6:08:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Cedar vs Spruce tops (in reply to Güiro)

quote:

I decided long ago that there was no point in trying to please everybody so I just try to please myself.

Thats my filosofy as well and I wont get pissed of if someone prefers one of your guitars or someone elses. There are many good builders (and many good bracing layouts