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Spencer

Posts: 34
Joined: Mar. 27 2008
From: Bargara Beach, Australia

Rasgueado techniqe 

I am working at developing my i-m-a rasgueado technique. In particular I am trying to get the initial set up of the fingers right.

Graf-Martinez, in his book, instructs us to hook the fingernails into the flesh along the inside of the thumb. He states it is necessary to do this to build up sufficient tension to get a decent flick of the nail across the strings.

I find this easy enough with i and m fingers, but it takes a bit of a contortion to get the annular (a) finger hooked in quickly.

It seems to me that in other sources of wisdom - such as YouTube - players often appear to me to be setting the nail into the palm before releaseing. This is easier for me to achieve, but I cannot get the tension and flick that is achieved with the GM method.

Any views on this?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2009 19:57:10

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Spencer

I hope you meant "A M I" rasgueados :)

You definately dont want to be practicing I M A , that is backwards.

I think you can tuck your fingers into the palm or back of the thumb, whichever
works. There's no hard rule on that one, i dont think.

TK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2009 20:49:32
 
Arash

Posts: 4401
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Spencer

In the initial position, the 3 fingers i,m,a are hooked side by side, inside the thumb.
So the position of the "a" finger should be somewhere at the (inside) tip of the thumb.
There should be no "knotted" kind of position but as if you build a small ball shape with thumb,i,m,a.
Also your thumb should have kind of bend position when hooked in to the bass string.
When you talk about "hooking in to quickly", i guess you are talking about continous rasgueados. it takes time to have a good continous rasgueados. Important thing is too train each finger seperately and slowly until you have same sound and power in each finger.
And when doing the cont. rasgueados, you have to move back "a" and "m" before the cycle is over, so at the same time when you do the "i" downstroke, you should already prepare the next cycle.

However, not sure if the a.m. mentioned points are the problem or not. just some ideas.
Here are also some pictures and some info in one of my post about the differences between 3 finger rasgueados and 4 finger and of course some people mix them etc......(scroll down a bit)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=102828&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#102872

hope that helps a bit.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2009 21:01:38
 
Spencer

Posts: 34
Joined: Mar. 27 2008
From: Bargara Beach, Australia

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Arash

Thanks for you replies.

Todd, I did mean a-m-i rasg. Tho' that does give me an idea - has that been done yet?

Arash, breaking it down the way you have is particularly useful. Perhaps I should suggest Graf-Martinez include exactly what you have written?!?

Yes, the problem for me is the cont. rasg. Setting the nail of a into the tip of p prevents "overcurling" and that is a useful insight.

I can see that starting to return a and m into position as the i makes the downward stroke makes sense. Not sure how I to do that yet, but I will sit and see if I can get my muscles to figure that one out!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2009 18:57:59
 
superboo

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Oct. 22 2008
From: hawaii

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Spencer

i've also encountered the same while studying the Graf-Martinez methodology. additionally, i have to force myself to remember to hook the thumb/nail in place rather than simply rest it; either way, my rasgueado is still unstable/uneven--something i hope is just a result of me being so new and will hopefully be rectified over time. for the time being, i'm getting sick of "Naino IV" (even though i play it at around half the speed he does).

i read a post here in the past that suggested resting the thumb near the rosette to avoid extraneous tension build-up, which would further suggest that the fingers are curled into the palm rather than the thumb itself. i'm curious of what others think as rasgueado is the primary technique being exercised in the vast majority of the pieces Graf-Martinez has me on currently.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2009 21:03:37
 
MarcChrys

 

Posts: 120
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to superboo

I find the Graf-Martinez 'a-m-i hooked under thumb' rasgueado rather cumbersome and ugly (!) - as I do his 'thumb always hooked on bottom E' rule. I just go with what feels right for me - which happens to be a-m-i folding out from the palm. I've been ritualistically practising e-a-m-i and a-m-i continuous rasgueados (slow and fast) on the edge of cups/wine glasses/train tickets/trouser legs (my own) etc for a couple of years and (apart from driving my wife mad) I can see it's going to take a lot of time to get perfect control over each finger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2009 3:23:27
 
edguerin

Posts: 1511
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Spencer

quote:

apart from driving my wife mad


Maybe we should initiate a self-help group for them ....

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2009 3:40:35
 
MarcChrys

 

Posts: 120
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to edguerin

Hee hee! I think wives and girlfriends have another 'solution'! e.g. chopping our fingers off
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2009 4:02:47
 
duwen

Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009
 

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to MarcChrys

you need to partake of some 'little ones' and try it a few times with the dark moon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2009 14:47:10
 
Filip

 

Posts: 174
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Madrid

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Spencer

Hi all,

I have one question I'm thinking about since this morning. When you play a-m-i rasgueado, once your a and m are down after downstroke, at what moment do you pull them up? Do you pull all ami up together with the i upward stroke, or you pull a and m before (maybe at the same time when i is doing downward stroke)?

I learned ami rasgueado by hooking fingers inside of the thumb, I guess it was good for strength. Now I don't do that anymore, I have ami bent and ready around a palm, but not hooked onto the flesh of a palm. My rasgueado sucks though.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 9:25:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11080
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Filip

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

Hi all,

I have one question I'm thinking about since this morning. When you play a-m-i rasgueado, once your a and m are down after downstroke, at what moment do you pull them up? Do you pull all ami up together with the i upward stroke, or you pull a and m before (maybe at the same time when i is doing downward stroke)?

I learned ami rasgueado by hooking fingers inside of the thumb, I guess it was good for strength. Now I don't do that anymore, I have ami bent and ready around a palm, but not hooked onto the flesh of a palm. My rasgueado sucks though.

Cheers

Flicking is only for certain chord voicings. Folks should also learn to do it freely with no support loading or flicking. In both cases a continuos fast roll requires a and m to come back in while i is coming down. I often teach this with I up starting pointed down with a and m curled up and ready .... i up ami......reset a and m keep i pointed down ......i up ami....etc

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 17:16:16
 
flyeogh

Posts: 459
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Folks should also learn to do it freely with no support loading or flicking.


Tx filip for re-opening this and Ricardo for clearing the mists from my eyes. I've been finding the freely played rasgueo much more natural, and now after hours of practise crisp. And also the right volume to fit in. (but wondered if I was going the wrong way )

When flicking from thumb mussel contact I have a weakness in my m and it sometimes tries to latch on to the a. So while I try and sort that and the roll as you suggest Ricardo I can still push on with my other palo stuff relieved I'm not cheating.

One question. I have a bit of arthritis so have dumped the 4 finger rasgueo. It seems to cause more pain. But I also experience pain with the 3 finger. While my albanico is no problem at all.


Does anyone know if regular rasgueo exercise will eventually get rid of the pain. Or is it something I need to live with and work-around?


Cheers. I'm off to try rolling my rasgueo

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 18:05:40
 
Filip

 

Posts: 174
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Madrid

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Spencer

Thanks a lot for your replies.

I do not have pain, but A finger is a bit uncomfortable for me when playing rasgueado, and it is not very autonomous (for example, when all my fingers are bent in palm, I can lift strait in a line each one of my fingers separately except a finger which maybe reaches 45 degrees).

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 19:33:34
 
jalalkun

Posts: 272
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Spencer

just like arash said, for a rasgueo without interruption you need to pull your anular up in the same moment you flick out your indice.

another good exercise I found to be is the rasgueo a mano suelta, in which you don't build up tension by pressing your fingers against your thumb(-muscle), but just flick them out of the air. this builds up strength in the extensor muscles of your forearm, thus making the other rasgueo easier and stronger. Pituquete made an awesome video about this where he explains it in further detail.

don't get me wrong, the rasgueo a mano suelta is not an exercise to make the other rasgueo stronger, but a technique on its own. but because you hit the strings from a free point and not a resting point it needs more control and separation in your fingers.

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My name is Jalal.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2019 8:07:30
 
Goldwinghai

Posts: 130
Joined: Mar. 17 2015
From: Virginia USA

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Spencer

Years ago when I first discovered Flamenco, I attempted my ragueado by playing a m i down then a m i up with the strokes kind of bunching together. It sounded chaotic like reaching your hand into a basket full of leaves and stir then them around. Recently with lessons with Ricardo, I was taught to anchor my thumb and a m i fingers must make clean and separate strokes on the other strings. It was too difficult. My m finger liked to piggyback ride on my a finger. I am doing rasgueado better now and especially after going to Sevilla for dance accompaniment lessons, I saw how the teacher make clean strokes with rasgueado tac tac tac tac. Even the dance teacher demanded me to do that when we did the Solea. She would tell me when she did not hear a clean 4. She reminded me again even when I played arpeggio and one of my left hand fingers either touched another string, or one of the notes not played loud enough “I hear only three” she said.
Question: a m i down then a m i up, is it a valid rasgueado technique? Thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2019 10:24:51
 
Filip

 

Posts: 174
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Madrid

RE: Rasgueado techniqe (in reply to Spencer

Yeah, rasgueado a mano suelta is how I do it, although I learned it by starting from the thumb. A mano suelta is easier for me and I have better control.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2019 11:28:15
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