Beginners'Solea Challenge

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Beginners' Solea Challenge

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Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

Beginners' Solea Challenge

Hi guys,

Here is an extract from Merengue de Cordoba's Encuentro. Do you think this would be suitable for the challenge?

By the way I really recommend this DVD, which covers the basics of 20 different palos, so it gives you some knowledge of a broad range of styles.

Let me know what you think.

A

PS you don't have to do the counting, though if you can imitate that deep voice you might get extra points!

PPS - damn file is too big!! Will be back later... in the meantime please upload other suggestions.

Hope it's there now - third time lucky?

Attachment

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 9:01:14

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

Val has also sent me a couple of short studies - they are both really pretty but might not be enough of a challenge? Just wondering that because some of you can really play that bulerias! If you wanna hear tho, I'll upload them. They are also from Oscar Herrero like the bulerias, but from his beginners studies rather than intermediate.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 9:32:24

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

hello Ailsa,
the Merengue de Cordoba's solea sounds good to me. It has lots of rasquedos to practice.
One thing also is that my wife likes it so its a good sign, there has been times I've been send away from the house to practice

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 11:48:56

Arash

Posts: 4497
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

I might get booed for saying this and might appeal like a nagging smart-ass, to have the cheek to critisize Maestro Merengue. Sorry but i cant restrain because i think it is important to start with a more "up to date" technique and it will make things a lot better, easier and better sounding (now and later), specially considering that my suggestion is not even more difficult, just a little bit different, so:

The Solea is good and an ok one for a beginner challenge but honestly, my advice would be to execute the rasgueados not exactly like Merengue de Cordoba but a little different:

1) Do not play the rasgueados over the soundhole like Merengue but move a little bit more to the right side of the guitar

2) Do not play the rasgueados striated and with this "Shrammmm Shrammmm" technique like Merengue but try to to play the Rasgueados with differentiated Flicks initiated from the thumb. One has to hear each stroke clearly and differentiated, kind of seperated and not "mixed". You can see the better execution in many videos of most other Maestros on youtube.

I understand that this is a beginner challenge, but thats exactly why i find it even more important to make the first steps with attention on best and most up to date technique.

I hope someone will give me some backup on this suggestion so that i dont feel alone in the role of a smart-ass

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 12:48:47

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Arash)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

I hope someone will give me some backup on this suggestion so that i dont feel alone in the role of a smart-ass

Done

.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 12:56:32

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Arash)

quote:

Do not play the rasgueados striated and with this "Shrammmm Shrammmm" technique like Merengue but try to to play the Rasgueados with differentiated Flicks initiated from the thumb. One has to hear each stroke clearly and differentiated.

I understand that this is a beginner challenge, but thats exactly why i find it even more important to make the first steps with attention on best and most up to date technique.

i'll back you up.

i agree. i think it's important to learn how to get clear, precise, articulate rasgueados first. then, afterwards, you can make the choice of which one you want to use for whatever effect you're trying to create. hope i dont sound like a smart ass either.

i'll comment more plus upload some suggestions when i get back later tonight.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 13:01:22

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Arash)

Well Arash, you know a lot more than I do so I take your word for it. It was just the only piece I have. Could you suggest something better?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 13:01:42

Arash

Posts: 4497
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

Hi Ailsa, i dont know a lot more, just giving back some advices from others.
As i said, the Solea is good. You dont need to change it. Just playing the rasgueados a little different would be better imo.

Let me search a little bit in my videos to find something which shows exactly what i mean and upload it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 13:06:05

Arash

Posts: 4497
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

I do not want to make a Rasguedos lesson in your thread but now that we spoke about it, one post which could be helpful.

Ok, here is a 2 minutes video from Gerardo (i think it should be ok if i upload such a short 2 min. part from the DVD) for 3 Finger Rasgueados. He plays a little bit fast, but you get an idea how to play the Rasgueados.

First you can see that his hand position is between soundhole and bridge and not so much above soundhole like Merengue.

Second you can see that at the beginning of each Rasguedos, his thumb gets kind of hooked in to the E-string and is angled and the 3 fingers are clamped under the thumb (not in palm of the hand), so that he can build up tension to flick the fingers a,m,i, away one by one from behind of the thumb with enough power.
This way the rasguedos sound transparent, crystal clear, differentiated and nicer imo.
The tension is not built in palm of the hand, but behind the thumb as mentioned.

Sidenote: only when you want to play 4 Finger Rasgueados (which is not so popular these days) including the little finger, the tension is built in palm of the hand. Paco for instance uses both rasgueado techniques, but now lets concentrate on 3 Finger rasgueados.

Now, do what he does slowly and flick the fingers one by one (first a, then, m, then i).
Fingers should kind of snap over the strings.
Slow down the video if necessary.
Each finger should be trained seperately.
Practice very slow until each finger creates the same Volume and the same sound like the other fingers.
There should be no difference, no cheating.
This way, you prevent to practice too fast and wrong and you train all your fingers correctly.

At the end of the video , he adds the "i" upstroke which makes the rasgueados 4 stroke of course and which is also used in Merengues solea (followed by "i" downstroke again and so on) The last part in the video is continous rasgueados.

btw, When you want to play such rasgueados with the higher 3 or 4 strings only, you should hook your thumb in to the
A string instead of E-string.

Ok here is the Video.

In the next post i will upload Merengues video part with the Solea that you uploaded so that we have everything.

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 15:54:30

Arash

Posts: 4497
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

Ok, here is Merengues Solea.

As mentioned, my suggestion would be just trying to play the rasgueados different.

Of course, there is nothing "wrong" with this rasgueados, but with the other style, you are on the "safe side" for the future.
Ok, i said that it is not more difficult but after thinking about again, It might be more difficult if you are new with it, but hey, it is a challenge and it must be difficult no? ....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 16:36:28

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Arash)

quote:

Sidenote: only when you want to play 4 Finger Rasgueados (which is not so popular these days) including the little finger, the tension is built in palm of the hand. Paco for instance uses both rasgueado techniques, but now lets concentrate on 3 Finger rasgueados.

how come i can't use the palm when i do three finger rasgueados? i like to use the very base of my thumb/palm, the meaty part. is this bad technique?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 19:16:42

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Arash)

Thanks for taking the trouble to uploads those examples Arash. Yeah I guess we could do that - use Merengue's music but just play the rasgueados more in the style of Gerardo?

Let's see if anyone finds another piece we would like to work on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 23:02:24

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

i feel like a cheap, used hooker

...you all had your way with me and now you dont need me anymore you have cast me out into the streets

jk..

all of you

...screw you people i dont need you

jk.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 23:37:55

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

i feel like a cheap, used hooker

Oh did we pay you? I didn't realise. Thought it was free.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2009 23:48:00

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

heres the paco serrano falseta which i found after much searching on you tube, the ending in the separate book of his pieces by encuentro is a little different in the remate. its a very nice falseta for anyone to add to their repetoire.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 1:40:06

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

after much searching on you tube,

I searched last night too and didn't find it, so am glad you did.

That is absolutely beautiful, a great falseta, and I agree it would be challenging but doable.

So guys that are entering - can we have some thoughts on:

1. Paco Serrano falseta
2. Merengue de Cordoba sequence (but with different rasgueado technique)

And any other suggestions?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 2:12:28

domzo

Posts: 64
Joined: Jan. 10 2007

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

They both seem suitable, however I really like the Serrano falseta, and I'm never going to get that deep voice thing right on the other one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 4:55:02

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

Serranos falseta is nice but I would go for Merenges compas.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 6:24:43

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to aleksi)

OK so Dom votes for Paco Serrano, Aleksi votes for Merengue

. Val, Kozz and Andresito do you have any view which one we should tackle?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 6:51:12

Arash

Posts: 4497
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

how come i can't use the palm when i do three finger rasgueados? i like to use the very base of my thumb/palm, the meaty part. is this bad technique?

When you play this traditional 4 Finger Rasgueados, your thumb lays outstreched on the Bass string (is not hooked and not angled) and the Tension is build up in palm of the hand, like this area of the hand:

---

When you play "modern" 3 Finger Rasgueados technique like Gerardo, the thumb is hooked in to the Bass string

.....and the tension is build in this area of the thumb:

Now, i guess what you say is something inbetween and i guess your thumb is not hooked in to the Bass string and not angled when you play 3 Finger Rasgueados right? So you build up the tension in this Area:

it is also ok technique imo. It is kind of a mix between these two versions.
Me personally find it easier specially when playing continous rasgueados to do it like Gerardo.
But Moraito for instance plays many rasgueados like this.

See, this not mathematics , so there is no exact rule for executing but during time players develop little improvements and different versions in technique. Try it out and see if it is suitable for you or not. Best would be to be able to execute them all. That way you have the full spectrum.

Also consider that in some passages of a piece, you might need a special sound and aire and you can change between all these versions of Rasgueados to achieve it.....like a single soft sounding Rasgueados when starting a tremolo section or something else...(where you dont want to have this machine gun sounding rasgueados :) )

---

Hey Ailsa, how about playing Paco Serrano Falseta with the voice of Merengue and Rasgueados of Gerardo and the Aire of Moraito? LoL

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 8:35:36

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

these are the one emoticons that I have no idea what they mean

I would like to play compas and compas licks. The more compas variations, the better. I feel that the falsetas are not so important, they can be added later and with my technic they dont sound even that good. Also when playing to other people, I think its easier to play nice piece of solea compas with some cool liks and sound beliavable than to do it with falsetas.
Of course later come the falsetas to add some spice but first the compas. And anyway, when we have some compas, we can play with dancers and singers. This is what we cannot do with falsetas. But this is what I prefer.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 10:53:11

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to aleksi)

means confused! Like when two people reply and one says it's black and the other one says it's white!!

OK aleksi I hear you loud and clear that we should do the Merengue because it's a good basis and you can add falsetas in anyway. I'll just give people til tomorrow to say something then we can go with that. We can always do the Paco Serrano falseta later - it is beautiful.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 10:59:23

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

Ailsa thanks for the explanation.
Many people many views.
I was lobbying Merenque quite hard

, oh well, lets see.
Anyway its nice to play these things together.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 11:23:55

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

means confused?

I always thought it meant sick as a parrot!

I think means...hey...que pasa aqui...(confused)

Looks like...I got toothache (or constipation)

Looks like Who are you? you snivelling pig.

Looks like....man, I'm so ashamed.

Looks like ...OK..so 2 and 2 = 6....right, OK.

Looks like....I don't care anymore...I'm gonna commit suicide.

Looks like ....I'm a smug bast*rd.

The only ones I use are

The rest I don't really understand! (

)

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 11:46:09

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ron.M)

Well Ron emoticons are a whole other language, and sometimes it's easy to misinterpret.

Surely sick as a parrot would be green Ron?

Here's some of my translations:

OMG I'm shocked that is soooooo awful!

Sigh, that is just typical. There isn't even any point arguing.

Boring

Shall I buy the red pair of shoes or the purple ones, I just can't decide.

That makes me sick!

Don't look now but there's that guy who thinks he looks so cool wearing sunglasses at night.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 11:55:21

Arash

Posts: 4497
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

Gay!

Horny!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 12:08:20

Ruispelto

Posts: 25
Joined: Aug. 8 2007
From: Finland

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

My first post.. hello everybody, Helsinki calling, and for Aleksi there are also other finnish guys here)) I am mr Ruispelto and I am going to take apart the Solea Challenge. With flamenco about two years, lonelyness and music 25 times.. I prefer Serrano. Thats all. Just horny.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 12:14:41

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to Ailsa)

hello mr ruispelto, wellcome to solea challange. Im always happy to see a fellow fin. I wonder if there would still be more here. The lonely days are over since this is quite active forum.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 12:27:29

Ruispelto

Posts: 25
Joined: Aug. 8 2007
From: Finland

RE: Beginners' Solea Challenge (in reply to aleksi)

Same, when I am in abroad. There are more, I know. But to the question about solea.. I like Arash contributions about the way playing rasguaidos, I concider them helpfull too, After listening lot of solea, and when I hear "old" "puro" solea, it´s so great like Robert Johsson in blues but I like express my feelings other, more fluent way. Paco has said this before and my words are already eaten, but still.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2009 12:50:38