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RE: 2s in bulerias examples
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
As foreigners, I think we come into Flamenco from the "wrong" viewpoint. There isn't much choice really. I too spent years arm-wrestling with bulerías, just about getting all the plates spinning at once...but the people I was partying with always did it so effortlessly, it was infuriating... My born again experience came in a car-ride on the way to a fiesta (people from flamencodisc are excused now, you have already heard the story). We were about 8 people squeezed into a vintage Mercedes, and everyone was doing compás, even the driver was beating on the wheel. They were taking turns singing bulerías and suddenly they all looked at me and said "you!". I've always sung lots of bulerías, but at that point I had been daydreaming briefly and couldn't locate the beginning or end of the compás! You know how sometimes you start hearing it from a different spot and the accents get displaced...I panicked...my life flashed before me...I thought: "where do I begin?!...where do I end?!...how can I fit my stuff in if I don't know where everyone is?!!!" The palmas kept whip-cracking for what seemed like two hours, but it was only a few seconds (the adrenalin does that)...then...suddenly...I noticed the whole car was rocking up and down with everyone's footstomps, even at 110kms per hour, and it was twos! That did it...there was no way out, I had to sing, so I clicked into the twos, crossed my fingers and jumped in... It felt like slipping into a warm bath and everything suddenly became easy...the morass which had been bulerías compas suddenly organized itself in a way only a computer could appreciate. After that, every time I sang or danced bulerías I always went back to that feeling, and in time it became internalized. Dat's my story and I'm stickin' to it.... Estela 'Zata'
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Date Jul. 1 2004 21:05:23
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Jim Opfer
Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)
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Zata, Nice story, and sounds like you've had some amazing adventures. In relation to compas, I think we are saying the same thing here, you make the point in your story that you were able to slip into compas realising the van was rocking in 2's. I can understand that and agreed with you earlier that this 'pulse' is there in Buleria and probably all other music. The thing is that this pulse has to be located within the bigger picture of the compas. Believe me Zata, I'm by no means trying to intelectualize this, I'm a guy who is a bit dislexic and you will realise I can't spell very well[:) I'm trying to express a simple idea that 2's is fine for this notion of good timing and if you like, feeling the compas, but buleria on the other hand requires internalization of a bigger picture. I guess I've miss spelt 'remate'? Ending on 10 for Solea, Alegria, Buleria etc and lets say 3 for Tangos. Cheers Jim.
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Date Jul. 2 2004 11:49:56
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Jim, What Zata's saying is try to view the overall compás of Bulerías from the perspective of the 2's rhythm. Keep the two's rhythm going and feel how the 3, 6 8, 10, 12 and 3, 7,8, 10, 12 etc etc all fit in around that primal rhythm. Don't locate the 2's into the bigger picture, but let the bigger picture locate itself around the 2's. It is sometimes very awkward to do, but try it and practise listening that way and you will find it a very useful tool in your bag. It's actually no help to discuss it or try to understand it. Best just trying it for a while and see what you think. Ye ken fit am spikkin aboot min? Ron
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Date Jul. 2 2004 13:02:47
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
I'm trying to express a simple idea that 2's is fine for this notion of good timing and if you like, feeling the compas, but buleria on the other hand requires internalization of a bigger picture. Jim, this is very important what you say here, and now we're using the same definitions. I could be wrong, but I think you dismiss twos as merely part of twelve, since 6 twos make 12. And that's where Spaniards handle the compás in a different way...which turns out to be the most useful way as far as I'm concerned. Dancers work in 12s, 6s, 3s, and 2s singers depend mostly on 2s and 3s (and not even that, since singing is not a percussive expression)...guitarists have to coordinate the whole thing with no compás shorter than 6, although they may dip into 2s provided they play a number of them which is divisible by 3. For this reason, from a guitarist's point of view, doggedly clinging to I--I--I-I-I- is a mission impossible because it doesn't correspond to the reality of what is going on and makes the job much harder. Maybe you can whistle Dixie at the same time you play bulerías, but why waste the effort? Furthermore, it's nearly impossible to keep a steady beat using the long scheme...I've heard non-Spanish guitarists say they have a hard time keeping the rhythm "down" in bulerías...but at fiestas here bulerías can go on for hours without a break, and there's no acceleration (with or without guitar). There's an extra added attraction to twos which is that as soon as you get them going, and it takes no effort, you'll instinctively group the beats into modules of 3 twos in which the third two falls more importantly than the first...sounds complicated, but all it means is your twos are actually keeping unfailing sixes, which is the limit of a guitarist's responsibility in bulerías in the first place. Remember, threes and twos can be felt, and don't need to be counted or understood intellectually (my cat taps 3 times when he wants to go out) so a large part of your outer cortex is freed for other more pressing tasks, while the business of compás is left to the limbic brain :-P...I just made up the science, but the premise is legit. "I guess I've miss spelt 'remate'? Ending on 10 for Solea, Alegria, Buleria etc and lets say 3 for Tangos." This is a good example of how the 12 concept works against you (and the spelling is correct). You're thinking of falsetas that usually end neatly on what you're calling 10. But nobody ever told dancers and singers they have to do that as well, so a 12 cycle leaves you unprepared to accompany, and is bound to limit your solo work. Estela 'Zata'
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Date Jul. 2 2004 13:07:47
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Jim, You know the copy of the Ondajerez video I gave you? Wind it on till near the end when Diego Amaya is accompanying the singer in that studio with all the folk seated around the tables. Now he plays a standard Bulerias, accenting 3, 7,8, 10 Now watch his foot and the way he moves his shoulders. It's on 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12. Not 1,2_4,5,_7,8_10,11. That's a completely different thing. Not necessarily, "Al Golpe", but fits in to practically any Bulerias. Look at his foot and watch how he is keeping time. And he is one of the best Bulerias accompanists around IMO. cheers Ron
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Date Jul. 2 2004 20:26:01
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Mike, There is no such thing as a Scottish "brogue". Like anywhere else in Britain, the regional dialect changes every 50 miles you drive in any direction. So there are several dialects in Scotland. Generally they are all English language words, but up here we play around with some vowel sounds and the occasional consonant to trip up foreigners LOL! "Ken" is not an exclusively Scottish word. It means "to know", or "have knowledge of". It was used in an older form of English, but you seldom hear it in England now. You must have heard the English song "Do you Ken John Peel"? I actually heard an American use the term on the Radio a while back. He said something like "Surely it's not beyond the ken of human civilization to sort out these kind of issues" "Ken" is really just used in the Eastern side of Scotland. No Glasgwegian or anybody to the West would dream of using the word, lest they would be thought of as a "Teuchter", (or country bumpkin.) I know Edinburgh is meant to be the Capital city of Scotland and not actually rural country, but Glasgwegians don't pay any attention to them anyway, so it doesn't matter LOL! The Scottish dialect is pretty easy to grasp once you've got a hold of a few pointers. Like, the English say "What?" The Central Scottish say "Whit" (note the vowel shift). And the NorthEasterners say "Fit". (note the vowel, plus fricative shift) So where I live, if somebody says "Fit like?" ("How are you?") The answer normally is "Nae bad min, foos yersel'?" (Not bad, man ..how are you?) "Min" is something I've heard only in Aberdeen. There was an Aberdeen City poster campaign here a few years ago, to alert folk against littering the streets by dropping paper etc called "Pititinabinmin". You're a pretty analytical guy so I'm sure you should be able to work it out! There is a rich vocabulary up here...something that took me a while to get used to. Like, a boy is called a "loon" and a girl called a "Quieney" (queenie..but rhymes with "shiney") I don't know where "loon" originated from, but if you called somebody in Glasgow a "loon", (looney) you would be eating Hospital food for the next week! So a quick lowdown on the general Scottish dialect for you Mike. The main vowel shifts that puzzle foreigners. Engish "no", or "home".... Scottish "nae" or "hame" English "first", or "shirt" ....Scottish "furst" or "shurt" English ""what" or "where"... Scottish "whit" or "whaur" As I mentioned in the NorthEast , the "wh" sound changes to an "f" sound. So here it would be "fit" or "faur" Scots never sound the final "ng" sound as in "singing"...so it's always "singin'" And Glasgwegians never pronounce the final "t" in a word, (sometimes *any* "t" in any position), preferring to replace it with a "glottal stop". So "can't" becomes "can'*" or "won't" become's "won'*", where "*" is the glottal stop. I would mention "don't", but Glasgwegians prefer the construction... "Goanny no dae tha*" (Kindly refrain from doing that, if you will). "Goanny" is a great word, only to be bettered by "Goanny no". Also there is no singular "you" and "you" (plural). In Glasgow, they have their act together, so you know immediately what they are talking about as they use "You" and "Youze". It's not as complicated as you think. A few weeks here and you'd get the swing of things. I've spoken to Simon, (who is Southern English) a couple of times on the phone and within a minute or so his ear attuned to the different sounds, so at least he could understand ever second word I said LOL! The Spanish Language (although I am very rusty at it now) is absolutely beautiful! They have great words for things. One of my favourites was "chisme" (thing) and it was jolly useful, 'cos if I didn't know the name for something, I'd just say "Este chisme". A valuable word. When I was in Madrid, my good friend Fernando always used to respond to the greeting "Qué pasa?", with the reply "Pasa agua" (piss) if life hadn't been too good to him on that particular week. Also countless other great (and sometimes funny) Spanish words that don't have a direct English equivalent. cheers Ron
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Date Jul. 2 2004 21:58:20
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples, on seco... (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
I know all about that, it's often quoted, I just want to find out exactly what you mean by two's. Two, four, six, eight, who do you appreciate, just like in first grade (assuming you use the one to twelve number system of counting bulerías). The waltz is more germane than you think. The BIG difference between using the 12-count and twos comes down to beat number 3 which is heavily accented in the former, never in the latter. For this reason, a lilting waltz becomes driving bulerías by simply removing the power of the third beat. Incidentally, beat number 9 is an orphan beat, or black hole, since it is not accented in any of the compás structures of bulerías...except strict threes which is waltz. Occasionally those threes are used very briefly, and there was a fad in the late seventies of doing "bulerías vals": Diego Carrasco "A mi Manuela"; Laventa "Porque estoy vacía", Lole y Manuel (many); Paquera "La rosa de mi alegría" among others. But the 'vals' form was limited and boring, and rather than becoming a new 'palo' as many thought at the time, it has fallen by the wayside. Estela 'Zata'
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Date Jul. 3 2004 9:19:10
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Jim Opfer
Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples, on seco... (in reply to zata)
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Zata, quote:
Two, four, six, eight, who do you appreciate, just like in first grade (assuming you use the one to twelve number system of counting bulerías). Ah! that's a clear statement and incidentally but no big deal, it's different from the wee fella on the video (not baseing any argument on that fact). To argue that compas in buleria is a string of twos is something that no doubt you find comes natural, is instinctive and very helpful, no question about that. But to claim that this is 'compas', vastly over simplifies and misses the big pictured . Fine for keeping in time, but not compas. Cheers Jim.
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Date Jul. 3 2004 9:54:46
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