Back from the big smoke, more guitars tried..

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Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

Back from the big smoke, more guitar...

Just got back from a trip to London where I popped into El Mundos and Andy's Guitar centre to try out flamenco guitars.

Having tried out another pile of flamenco guitars, guess what? I'm not selling my Sanchis. Yep, I took the Sanchis up with me so I could get an accurate comparison of tone and set up etc, without relying on my memory and to rule out room acoustics being a factor. My Sanchis actually sounded better than some guitars twice the price (no doubt partly due to the strings, see below) but it also played a lot smoother than many of the others I tried. I am slowly getting use to the naranja too, despite preferring a blonde finish.

I tried out guitars from about £400 - £3k, and my conclusions, (which will no doubt sound very familiar) were:

-it was suprising the state of the strings on some of these guitars - how can you honestly appraise a one thousand pound guitar that has a set of rusty old cheese wires on it?

-so much for quality control eh? I tried two Burguet 2Fs back to back, one had the action of a bow and arrow and sounded clunky, the other was fine (interestingly though, there WAS a difference in price of £100).

-I didn't play one guitar that didn't (badly in some cases) need a set up. The saddle height on some of these was suprisingly high.

-What really suprised me most of all was how little the general difference was between the guitars across the intermediate - expensive price range, a point I think Ron made recently. Did the £3k guitar sound better than my Sanchis? Well yes, a little more refined in tone, a little 'tighter' and more even across the strings, but not two and a half grand's worth of better tone!

Andys at Denmark street only had a Bernal Sueno left in stock at £1.4k. Nice guitar, but no real difference to what I already have.

Anyhow, El Mundo's was great fun, wall to wall flamenco guitars and paraphenalia, lots of flamenco vids and CDs, and music books. I was like a kid in a sweet shop. And I finally understand what Simon's 'guitar mute' is

... The guy in the shop told me that the owner (Juan somebody?) is getting Moraito over to London to do a workshop. I told him to subscribe to Foro Flamenco and keep us updated, so we may hear from them soon.

So there you go. After deciding to keep the Sanchis, it is currently in the hands of my local guitar tech who is tweaking the saddle and nut a little for me.

..there's a moral there, somewhere.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2004 13:05:18

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Back from the big smoke, more gu... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Jon,
I wonder, there is another possible factor. Is it possible that you haven't had enough experience with flamenco guitars to really know what is good in terms of playability and tone? I know that I am continuing to learn this with each guitar I play, and even just in time with my own guitar. For example, I borrowed my friend Monty's Navarro, which is slightly smaller than my Vicente Carillo, and it was a joy to play! I'm still learning and although I think I would know a real whopper when I played it, don't trust my judgement all that much yet.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2004 15:58:34

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Back from the big smoke, more gu... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

That's great to hear Jon, I'm glad you feel good about your guitar given that you waited so long and then seemed to 'just buy one' out the blue, cold and then seemed dissapointed with your purchase.

You'll feel better now for your trip.

It's Juan Teijeiro. Juan has to be about the biggest importer of Spanish guitars into the UK, he handles all makes and can usually get something on request, but he's a bit pricy.

MdM, makes a good point about developing sensitivity towards a good flamenco instrument, but you're a professional player and there aint no such thing as a 'better' guitar, at least not till you find one that is.

Best wishes, and I hope the 'tweeks' turn out well.
Let us know.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2004 18:45:15

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Back from the big smoke, more gu... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Wow! I got my own acronym! Just like PDL and VC! I'm famous! Thanks JO and JB!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2004 19:57:20

Escribano

Posts: 6418
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Back from the big smoke, more gu... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

The guy in the shop told me that the owner (Juan somebody?) is getting Moraito over to London to do a workshop

He managed to get Jeronimo Maya last year.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2004 20:01:03

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Back from the big smoke, more gu... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Jon,
I wonder, there is another possible factor. Is it possible that you haven't had enough experience with flamenco guitars to really know what is good in terms of playability and tone?

You may have a point with tone, and for that matter response, but I would certainly disagree about playability. I've been playing guitar for 25 years, and have set up lots of guitars in that time. I can tell when a nut is a fraction higher than it should be, as my guitar tech confirmed to me when I took my Sanchis in. Saddle height (within certain parameters), neck profile and string gauge are really down to individual taste. Thats about it when it comes to playability.

The fact is Mike, that the majority of factory-made guitars are not properly set up when they arrive in the shop. Any luthier will confirm this.

And I think I can tell an old set of strings when I see one

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2004 8:28:07

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Back from the big smoke, more gu... (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer

Best wishes, and I hope the 'tweeks' turn out well.
Let us know.

Hi Jim, thanks for the info.

Just to clarify my tweaks as I didn't give details: the nut was slightly higher than it should be at the treble string end, the saddle was plastic and slightly arch-shaped ie it was higher in the middle than at both ends.

I am having the nut corrected and a new saddle cut from bone with the correct profile, with the action at my preferred height (around 2.5mil 12ft/6th).

Cheers

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2004 8:51:15

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Back from the big smoke, more gu... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Jon,
okay, well as you know, no disrespect of course with that last comment. So, my next question is--what are the chances of a factory guitar meeting your high standards? My guess is that there is a very small chance that any factory guitar will be any good, and that most reputable luthier-built guitars will be well done. I guess sometimes how a guitar sounds is variable, but a skilled luthier is probably able to do quite a precise job in terms of playability and setup.

I had a Juan Huipe (Paracho) flamenco that almost everyone loved who played it. Actually I sold it to two guys in town that had already owned and gone through guitars of the same model. Both are raving about it! People who know Huipes love it. Now I was just lucky, picked it out of six as the best, and it certainly was. But it's not like it was as good as my current guitar, which costs 4 times as much. All this searching for a good factor model, are you just looking for one like I had, that lucky zinger that somehow rises above the rest?

Also, do you think that classical guitars are made better than flamencos? Do you have an easier time finding good classicals?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2004 15:34:28

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Back from the big smoke, more gu... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Also, do you think that classical guitars are made better than flamencos? Do you have an easier time finding good classicals?

Yes, definitely, in terms of factory made guitars.

The market is much, much bigger for classicals, they are produced on a bigger scale, the competition is much more fierce at the student end, which drives up quality. I could choose from dozens of classical guitars in my home town, and in every major town in the region. For flamenco guitars, the nearest shop that sells them is a two hour drive.

It is basic economics.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2004 16:08:41