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Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ottmar Liebert of Cante) ?   You are logged in as Guest
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Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ottmar ... 

I have never seen or read about a bad Cantaor in the foro. They seam to be all good.

I mean it seams like everyone who sings, must be good because Cante rules anyway.

I have to say that because of Lack of knowledge about spanish Language and Cante, i can not go in to details like Letras etc.

The only thing from which i can base my decision, is if i like their Voice or not.

For example i like the voices of Guadiana, Jose Merce, Duquende, Morente, Camaron (this is an exception although the color of Voice is different from my normal taste).

And there are others (also some famous ones) that i dont like.
In case of males, mostly if their Voice is too sharp and with less deepness.

For example this Singer who sings with Vicente on his DVD (en concierto desde cordoba) is awful to my ears
and it destroys the whole harmony of the piece. Or Voices like from Diego del Cigala and many others.

For sure some Cantaors that i like, are been sneered at from others.
And those that i dont like, are favourites from others.

So, what are the criterias for you to seperate good Cantaors from others?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 3:17:53
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Arash

btw, this is the singer i spoke of



i dont know what to do with that......his voice just doesnt fit ....specially at 2:04....

This is one of my favourite bulerias from Vicente and in this case i really have to say that i wish there would be NO Cante in it (specially not such a voice)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 4:04:45
 
val

 

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:46:37
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 4:12:31
 
gardenshed

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Jul. 31 2006
 

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Arash

You have to talk to dancers about who is a good singer for them. Some singers are renowned for being more in sympathy with the requirements of the dancers than others.

Dancers have their lists, but it's perfectly understandable that they don't broadcast them on the internet but prefer to simply use who they need.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 4:28:25
 
MarcChrys

 

Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Arash)1 votes

I haven't heard that much cante, though I DO like Jose Merce and - heresy though it may be - can't say I was that impressed by Camaron.

Judging by the standards of opera and even rock/pop music, I find the singer in the Vicente Amigo clip to have a rather thin weak voice. Not to my taste.

PS Can we put a stop to the Juan Martin jokes? A Juan Martin of singing would not be Pavarotti but he'd certainly have a good voice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 5:23:23
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Arash

Hi Arash,

Since the 90s, a lot of singers sound like the guy in the clip. It's the influence of Camarón, especially the voice in his later recordings. Unfortunately, sometimes it sound like a depressed teenage girl trying to sing like Camarón.

I tend to pay attention to how well the singer "rides" the compás, if s/he is placing the syllables in an interesting way, locked into the rhythm, or just kind of draping the cante over the rhythm. Silences have a lot to do with it. Maybe you've seen a guitarist who was doing everything right, but you couldn't help noticing that it'd sound better if he muted the strings once in a while.

But it all depends on taste. I get really turned off by "precious" voices. Shouldn't be such a big deal, but something about them really makes me bristle! Plenty of good aficionados like those kinds of voices (Chacón, etc.)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 5:30:00
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Arash

quote:

This seems more like a guitar solo taht could have done without the singer altogether. Isn't he letting the guitarist know he's coming back in and asking them to sort out their compas so he can sing? I could actually do without all the solo slots. There's too much of it for me - I like the singing.


I have heard Solo Guitar pieces with "guest starrings" of Cantaors which sounded very nice and where the Cantaors added the "icing on the cake" to that piece with their short but qualitative part.

---

Hey Norman, i agree with your comments. Specially this one:

quote:

Unfortunately, sometimes it sound like a depressed teenage girl trying to sing like Camarón.



I know there is no accounting for taste, but this is how a male voice should be (for me of course)







I like this kind of raw deep voices.

It is masculine and not like a pussy (quoted from Doitsujin, not my words lol) and it is also a good contrast to the sound of guitar and rounds over the whole piece.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 6:07:19
 
cigany

Posts: 83
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: USA

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Arash

I guess it's a matter of taste. I'm often disappointed by the cantaors guitarists collaborate with. For example, I like Vicente, but can't listen to his CDs with El Pele. And speaking of "masculine" voices, I also find it hard to listen to Carmen Linares. On the other hand, I can't get enough of Potito's Mía Pa Los Restos CD--every song is perfection. Again, a matter of taste I think.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 7:19:56
Guest

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Arash

There are plenty of bad cantaores/as, but they don´t get recording contracts. So if you don´t live in Spain, you don´t get to hear them Don´t confuse bad singing with something you don´t like.

By the way, El Pele, who has recorded a lot with Vicente Amigo, has just been given the prize for the best cante disc of 2008 for 8 guitarras y un piano

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 8:23:44
 
cigany

Posts: 83
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: USA

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Arash

Yes, you're right. I think we can all recognize talent and appreciate it, but it's a matter of personal taste whether the sound of someone's voice is unappealing. That in no way makes them "bad" singers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 8:41:27
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Arash

I like everything from Montse! With the others it depends, different songs require different voices.
A singer I didnt like is on the first Buleria of Jesus de Rosarios album. The beginning singing is ok, but I have the feeling he messes up half of the notes in the middle parts. Although cante is a sacrileg in flamenco, its also true what somebody told me once, namely that the voice is just an instrument as any other, and if you dont practise it, it will sound bad.

IMO Singing fits much more on live stage than on CDs by the way.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 10:05:52
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to MarcChrys)1 votes

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcChrys

PS Can we put a stop to the Juan Martin jokes? A Juan Martin of singing would not be Pavarotti but he'd certainly have a good voice.


You mean because JM has a good Conde guitar??

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 10:44:16
 
MarcChrys

 

Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to XXX

I KNEW I'd be asking for it! :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 12:14:07
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to MarcChrys)1 votes

quote:

PS Can we put a stop to the Juan Martin jokes? A Juan Martin of singing would not be Pavarotti but he'd certainly have a good voice.


Seriously though Folks,

Juan and his wife don't post stuff here, but ARE members, so can see all this stuff.

While it's acceptable to give a criticizm of a particular Artist, it is not cool to keep hammering someone IMO.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 12:27:12
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to Ron.M

Ron, i dont see any smileys, so i guess its not your usual british humor?? Are you serious? How do you know that?

Ok, i see you, but i have to say i felt i just HAD TO answer on MarcChrys' post. Its just fun anyway, i dont want to dictate anybody my tastes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 12:52:30
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ott... (in reply to Arash

Ok sorry, i edited the title.
Hope its ok now.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 12:54:24
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ott... (in reply to Arash



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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 13:05:31
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14912
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ott... (in reply to Arash

As Sean said of course there are bad ones, perhaps you don't hear often. I say more bad ones out there than good, but what is the point REALLY of talking about THAT?????

Lets talk also about dancers that suck, and hack guitar players while we are at it?

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 13:26:35
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ott... (in reply to Arash

The point is that i wanted to know if there is also the same phenomen in Cante like in the guitar world where not so good guitarists are more famous and make much more money than many other better guitarists and if yes why and how do you identify them (because i cant).-

Seans statement is the opposite. He says:

"There are plenty of bad cantaores/as, but they don´t get recording contracts"

Is that really the case?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 13:32:02
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ott... (in reply to Arash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

Ok sorry, i edited the title.
Hope its ok now.




I don't think this new title works either. OL has a decent technique and sound, just no respect for compas.

Whereas in your youtube example, the guy just has a weak voice. I don't think he was out of compas (was he? It's hard for me to tell with cantaores).

I'm also sure there are many more amateur/aficionado cantaores in Spain than tocaores. Especially in showers.




Hey! Quick question:

I have troubles with (literary) irony sometimes. Is it mere coincidence or is it an irony that this thread appears so close to the thread about guitarists being snobs?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 14:04:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14912
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ott... (in reply to Arash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

The point is that i wanted to know if there is also the same phenomen in Cante like in the guitar world where not so good guitarists are more famous and make much more money than many other better guitarists and if yes why and how do you identify them (because i cant).-

Seans statement is the opposite. He says:

"There are plenty of bad cantaores/as, but they don´t get recording contracts"

Is that really the case?


Flamenco pop is big with contracts...that is not really cante. Like Nina pastori. On the other hand Platero de Alcala is one of the best singers I have ever heard in my life, he was a nobody....

So sure.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 14:07:02
 
gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to cigany

quote:

but can't listen to his CDs with El Pele. And speaking of "masculine" voices, I also find it hard to listen to Carmen Linares. On the other hand, I can't get enough of Potito's Mía Pa Los Restos CD--every song is perfection. Again, a matter of taste I think.


It certainly is a matter of taste. I love El Pele, and melt when I hear Carmen Linares. There are others I care less about, like Arcangel, though I know people who are crazy about him. To me it's if the voice does something to me, if I can feel the emotion in it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 21:22:15
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to gshaviv

How tastes vary. El Pele's recording with Vicente is one of my favorites, and I love Carmen Linares. With all due respect, Potito has too nasally a voice for me. Sounds like a Bob Dylan voice. I also can't handle La Tana sometimes. That's my taste though, has nothing to do with "Bad Cantaor" or not.

I'm crazy about Estrella Morente (especially if I can SEE her sing ) and Angel Pastor and Juaneke are among my all-time favorite voices.

Cameron is of course one of the greatest, but everybody trying to sound like him makes the above mentioned singers a nice change.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 22:50:22
 
MarcChrys

 

Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ott... (in reply to Arash

Having defended Juan, I was just about to launch into an impassioned defence of Ottmar, but I thought I'd do my research first and listened to a few YouTube clips - hmm, very 'easy' listening, probably good for insomniacs :(

PS Though I'll be controversial and say Vicente sometimes strays dangerously close to that territory :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 4:03:26
 
gardenshed

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Jul. 31 2006
 

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ott... (in reply to Arash

Another singer who's 'not bad'.



Uncompromising. Here's his brother



It's a matter of 'puro' in this case.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 4:18:40
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Ott... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Flamenco pop is big with contracts...that is not really cante. Like Nina pastori.


Interesting. I was just reading this new interview with her which appeared on the main page of FW.

http://www.flamenco-world.com/artists/nina_pastori/pastori04022009.htm

Interesting title at the top!

I dont have this Album though. But seams to be much more "flamenco" than her albums in the past?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 4:48:12
 
veet

 

Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Is there any bad Cantaor (or Jua... (in reply to val

That singer is Blas de Cordoba, from the stylistic school of neo-Camaronistas, like Duquende and Cigala. He's a superb singer, I heard him in the Amigo tour in 2002 and then the only problem was the sound mix had so much reverb on him they buried his voice.

The letra complained about is just standard bulerias, no way does it not 'fit.' It's all just a matter of taste I guess. Some prefer Camaron, others Terremoto. Some like rajo voices, others clear ones. The only bad cante to me is one that is either a. phoned in and not heartfelt, or b. is out of tune, breaks compas, or (if guiri cante,) is mispronounced.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 14:30:26
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