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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (a profoundly negative post :-) )
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Aaron
Posts: 9
Joined: Oct. 14 2006
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 RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to superboo)
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Who is this Jacinto? Must be just like my dad, but is not.
I don't know superboo, depends on what day you catch me. We could have a contest for worst guitarist. My problem in part is, I was self taught. I tried running before crawling and cut my teeth on delicada Farruca, the piece by Sabicas that Grisha plays. Took me a year to learn, got me second place in a talent show, despite absolutely sucking (looking back on it). Then as I decided to get more serious about flamenco and discovered youtube, I realized that my technique was shameful. It was totally wrong in many ways. I realized that I would never be able to produce the tone I wanted no matter how much I practiced the wrong way. I made the decision to retrain from scratch. Ouch! Do not make this decision lightly. About 2.5 years later my tone is much better, and I struggle to make it through any piece I know which I once considered pretty "easy" . Despite a massive amount of work, at least I could finish a damned piece 3 years ago. Retraining is a nightmare. I cannot overemphasize this. After hours and hours of practice, you feel like you are making progress only to wake up the next day to find no evidence in your fingers of ever having practiced.
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Date Jan. 31 2009 16:01:42
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MarcChrys
Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Aaron)
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A rambling post coming up :) I think this thread is as much about personality types as whether guitarists per se are snobs? Like whether we're Type A/Type B, introvert/extravert, pessimistic/optimistic, have high or low need to achieve etc. Whether or not flamenco attracts specific personality types is an interesting question. I'm sure if I heard you, I'd be impressed, and, if you heard me, you'd think I suck! And yet I'm probably more content with where I am! To me my glass is half-full - and getting fuller - where some flamenco hotshot would judge my glass to be empty!
Also I think it's about where we've come from and where we want to get to? Our individual flamenco Odysseys? Some of us have stumbled upon the wild ocean of flamenco and are happy just paddling and playing on the shore (making a few sandcastles, skimming stones) others want to dive in deep and get to the pearls at the bottom of the sea. I guess I'm a beachcomber: I just enjoy surprising myself with new things I learn (yesterday I realized I was playing a technique incorrectly, and had been for 2 years!! So I had to re-learn, but now I feel 'great, I'm back on track') and get a lot of pleasure being able to compose my own 'flamenco' pieces and play along passably (in my opinion!) to flamenco CDs and recreate loose variations of my fave players' songs.
You seem to be more of a deep diver than a paddler (!), so you are quite a strict judge of yourself (words like 'shameful', 'I sucked', 'nightmare' are sprinkled throughout your post), a perfectionist who aspires to reproducing faithfully the masterpieces of the greats?
Actually I think doodler/artist is perhaps a better comparison than paddler/diver! Ironically, I was attracted to flamenco because I liked its wildness and spontaneity. Now I'm getting a bit dismayed because it seems incredibly structured and regimented? Part of me wants (like you) to dive in deep and embrace the complexity, but the doodler/paddler me thinks 'just carry on paddling, playing a fusion of styles'.
Anyway, I find the differences - the uniqueness of our philosophies and journeys - to be a good thing. Who wants to all be the same? Or strive for the same things? The only thing that's ultimately important is our love for the music and the fun we have playing it. I hope you have a good day with your guitar, and put it down with a feeling of 'man, I was hot today!' :)
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Date Feb. 1 2009 2:02:39
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Aaron)
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I would like to add it is not just guitarists that are snobby, but musicians and aritist in all genres or instrument categories might be snobs of some sort. And singers worst of all, being born with the fantasitic instrument or not.
Again I bring up john mClauglin, a guy who manages to both get criticized AND manages to actually perform with musicians of high calibur from all around the world of different genres. He summed it up good for guitarists. He said "the only egoless persons in the world are saints, and you don't usually find saints playing guitars". 
This was another bit about mclaughlin and flamenco aficionads that I posted recently in an other topic, which I think is appropriate for this "snob" thread. Again my point is I personally like to cut past the BS and PLAY with other people to both learn and interact, make some sort of deeper bond than just talking or criticizing. A simple live demo reveals a lot, and can create mutual respect.
quote:
About folks that think they "know it all" or can rest on their laurels, perhaps I am a weird case. I like to learn the music literally. Meaning yeah, instead of trying to listen to folks talk about a fandangos melody and categorize it, I try to actually sing it, note for note (in the shower of course!) Same with the guitar (ok, in public...). Then suddenly details pop out that are REALLY important, that the "talkers" obviously don't notice, because, well, they don't HEAR it, because they can't or don't do it. Again that is why I like Norman's work cause is there with the transcription and everything,crystal clear.
I would like to quote John Mclaughlin about learning music, which I think is appropriate for flamenco too. He was asked if he teachers or talks about the emotional aspects of playing in his teaching video. He says "no" meaning he address difficulties of technique, and executing music, rhythm, etc, because
"Every human being is full of emotions....I don'tneed to address these because they will come out in their own way. When you learn music, you are confronted with your inadequacies very quickly. Am I correct? We ALL become confronted with our incapacities and depth of our own ignorance for heaven's sakes. It's TERRIBLE! It is extremely depressing. At the same time, it is very encouraging because it gives us something to fight against. This is the real battle in music, is our own incapacity and lack of articulation in areas of our being that we are unable to articulate in a musical way. We are unable to say what we really feel....I have a theory that all musicians would be like serial killers if they weren't musicians."
So I feel, rather than read and speculate what flamenco MIGHT have been, simply learning it and doing it is the best education for ME. I know it might be different for different folks, and I got no problems with that. But the opinions I give out tend to be what I would tell myself
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 1 2009 15:40:32
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to cathulu)
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Ricardo, your repeat of your previous John McLaughlin post makes it clear that this is a topic that is important to you. Your final paragraph, though-- "So I feel, rather than read and speculate about what flamenco MIGHT have been, simply learning and doing it is the best education for ME."-- seems to set up a false and unnecessary choice between reading and speculating about flamenco history, and just doing flamenco. Why not do both? The one is not the enemy of the other. Isn't the most complete and aware artist the one who has some knowledge about the history of his/her art?
Also, we must remind ourselves that, in addition to reading and speculating, we have a fairly rich recorded history of what flamenco actually sounded like, going back to the early years of the last century, and maybe earlier, so the MIGHT in your post is really not all that speculative. I do see one problem with learning and knowing "too much" about flamenco history: It might call into question whether a lot of what is being performed and played now is actually flamenco. This has nothing to do with whether what's being done now is good or bad; it's about whether it's really flamenco. If you look at some other flamenco forums, you'll see that new people entering what they believe to be the world of flamenco, believe it to be the world of the Gypsy Kings, rumbas, castanets, and guitar hypertechnique. These newcomers love this new world of "flamenco", and more power to them, but is it really flamenco?
Nobody--NOBODY--can be hurt by reading about and listening to the music that was called flamenco for the last century or so, and doing so may actually make people better (or at least better informed) artists.
(He picks up his soap box, and walks away into the twilight.)
runner
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Date Feb. 2 2009 5:44:56
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to runner)
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Sorry, this was off topic, and dont' want to beat the dead horse about, so just this last post from me about it, promise. Especially for anyone reading thinking "what the hell is Ricardo on about anyway?" LOL
quote:
seems to set up a false and unnecessary choice between reading and speculating about flamenco history, and just doing flamenco. Why not do both? The one is not the enemy of the other.
Not really. I was saying the way it is FOR ME specifically, and I admit it can be different for others. My point is it can be redundant to investigate verbal histories, of something you already KNOW by being able to do it yourself. It is not they are enemies, but it is sort of redundant. Nothing wrong with it, but one is WAY more important to do than the other, is the point.
quote:
Isn't the most complete and aware artist the one who has some knowledge about the history of his/her art?
Not necessarily. For me, again just ME, the artist that can express what ever he knows, and does it well, is better. Example would be Mairena vs Caracol. Again that is just me, and my tastes.
quote:
we have a fairly rich recorded history of what flamenco actually sounded like,
again as before no arguement there. I consider listening as "active" part of learning and doing flamenco, vs reading what someone might say ABOUT the recording.
quote:
It might call into question whether a lot of what is being performed and played now is actually flamenco. This has nothing to do with whether what's being done now is good or bad; it's about whether it's really flamenco. If you look at some other flamenco forums, you'll see that new people entering what they believe to be the world of flamenco, believe it to be the world of the Gypsy Kings, rumbas, castanets, and guitar hypertechnique. These newcomers love this new world of "flamenco", and more power to them, but is it really flamenco?
Again, it MIGHT be flamenco actually. Depends on specifics, and as I said lots before, we each draw our own individual lines about it based on personal experience, knowledge and taste. People who know history of flamenco but can't do palmas for example, tend to have different lines drawn than I do. At least so I gather talking to them. Others who seem to have similar tastes and ideas as myself, tend to have some demonstrable abilities doing the art itself. Again I point the quote of Mclaughlin regarding being confronted by our own inadequacies. Right there becomes the point of either snobbery or humbleness depending on the type of student we are.
quote:
Nobody--NOBODY--can be hurt by reading about and listening to the music that was called flamenco for the last century or so, and doing so may actually make people better (or at least better informed) artists.
Listening again is always good, but I can only speak for myself when I admit reading about flamenco set up certain miss conceptions early on. It really depends on WHO is writting about it, but how will you know before hand? Point is, many miss conceptions and questions and concersn that one might have about such an artform can last for years, and getting cleared up in MOMENTS, by actually interacting in the environment itself. Has happend so many times to myself and others I know, for me to take a different view at this point. Sure I have read some good stuff too, but again, already KNOWING about it I find myself in agreement.
Ok poor dead horse, I am gonna step of this one for now.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 2 2009 7:48:56
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sig
Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Aaron)
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Aaron,
Your post made me smile as I've though about this many times. I've noticed that what seems like arrogance is just sometimes the persuit of perfection in your art. Don't get me wrong, i've come across some real ego's during my guitar playing journey but thankfully its been the exception rather than the rule. I've been practicing Flamenco seriously for the past 6 years and only now am I accompanying a dance class. I can tell you I am far from accomplished but i've been given an opportunity to learn which is worth its weight in gold to me at least. I work with another guitarist that is several years behind me but we are both cooperating and I've learned things from him that I would never have learned sitting in my bedroom practising alone.
We all feel depressed about our playing from time to time I assure you I do, however you must look to ways to enhance your practice time, do something to make it fun again. Always keep learing new things but continue to practice the basics because you know, we get better in small increments, not by leaps and bounds. In the DVD Light and Shade, Paco's sister tell's a story of him as a child of 10 maybe, sitting for hours playing nothing but scales; he is a virtuoso as much because of his ability to continue when others would have given up as natural talent.
There are some excellent players on this site, to this I can attest as i've seen Ricardo play in person. Let me tell you I was depressed for a week afterwards as I compared my limited skills to his. What I failed to realize is it's a losing proposition to compare one's self to another. We are each capable of attaining our goals but do we have what it takes to do that? To hang in there when others quit?? Stop comparing yourself to Sabicas or anyone else, share your gift of Flamenco with others and I'll bet you'll feel much better about your playing!
Sig--
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Date Feb. 2 2009 9:45:44
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to cathulu)
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Ricardo has left the field--he has more sense than I, but I can't help but pick up my soap box again for one last effort. I return yet again to my old disagreement with Ricardo about the connection, or lack of it, between tientos and tangos, as an example of the value of listening to recorded flamenco as it has been performed for decades and scores of years, and reading about its history versus Ricardo's notion that he knows all he needs to know by playing (direct contact).
To rehash my original point, I submit that anybody who listens to "classic" tientos and to "classic" tangos gitanos/tangos canasteros very quickly recognizes that these are closely related forms. It's not clear whether tientos evolved into tangos, or vice versa (and maybe that disagreement annoys Ricardo--why waste time reading about it, he might say), but the relationship is obvious. And it is and has been obvious to those who have written about flamenco--any book about flamenco will discuss the connection. But Ricardo stated that he was not aware of, or convinced of, any connection between tientos and tangos. And that might be true, if the only tangos you knew about or listened to were the kind we saw/heard on the Saura Flamenco DVD. This is the value of reading about and listening to the flamenco of our past as a way of strengthening our art, and not relying entirely on our own perceptions of what flamenco is or was.
Ricardo's example comparing/contrasting Mairena and Caracol, with Mairena being the "educated" flamenco and Caracol the "natural talent" artist depends entirely upon which cantaor's singing one prefers. He and I both probably prefer Caracol, but that really is an example of de gustibus.... What if Caracol was the "educated" flamenco? Did Mairena's encyclopedic knowledge of flamenco make him a singer we both like less than Caracol? Hardly likely. This is a slender reed to base an argument upon.
(he wanders back into the twilight)
runner
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Date Feb. 2 2009 17:03:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Francisco)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Francisco
Good point, gjM. It's hard to consider advice regarding the 'golden rule' as ever being a bad thing to suggest. None of us are above receiving such advise.
P.S. Would be great if you elaborated on this, Ricardo...
quote:
quote:
Isn't the most complete and aware artist the one who has some knowledge about the history of his/her art?
Not necessarily. For me, again just ME, the artist that can express what ever he knows, and does it well, is better. Example would be Mairena vs Caracol. Again that is just me, and my tastes.
...but maybe that's better in another thread.
Elaborate how? Yeah it is off topic anyway.
quote:
This is a slender reed to base an argument upon.
My example was not meant to be the base of a 180 degree counter argument. I only use the example to say "not necessarily" meaning historical knowledge does not make for a more complete and aware artist in every case. Another example, with guitar this time, Manolo Franco won the guitar competition over Tomatito, because Tomatito did not play any guajiras worth performing solo. So lets be honest, Tomatito is the LESSER artist????? Everyone is allowed to judge for themselves.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 2 2009 20:45:52
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to cathulu)
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Are arguments being made here in favor of ignorance? O tempora! O mores!. But, then again, it's been said that, if ignorance is bliss, then 'tis folly to be wise (but I don't hold with such views, and I'm sure nobody else does, really, not even here).
I am repeating myself, but for a discussion of the relationship betwen tientos and tangos, see:
The Art of Flamenco, Donn Pohren; also see Flamenco, edited by Claus Schreiner,
and one can listen to: Tientos y tangos, Perrate de Utrera, with Pedro Peña, Colección Nuestro Flamenco 2, RTVE CD #62079, 2004, and/or Tientos, María Soleá, with Paco del Gastor, Cante Gitano, Nimbus CD #NI 5168, 1989. There are plenty more examples.
runner
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Date Feb. 3 2009 6:40:26
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