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Why are guitarists such snobs? (a profoundly negative post :-) )
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Aaron
Posts: 9
Joined: Oct. 14 2006
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 Why are guitarists such snobs? (a pr...
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It is amazing to me how snobby guitarists are. I think it sort of fits our nature as perfectionists (the only people willing to while their time away trying to play flamenco guitar are perfectionists and/or masochists). We listen to Paco or Sabicas and delude ourselves into thinking that if we practice after work every day then little by little we will reach some similar level. We make a small amount of progress and suddenly think we are far better than we are. Yet we still feel apt to condemn or criticize others for not being perfect.
You can look on the youtube comments and find snobs everywhere saying negative things about Grisha and other great guitarists as if all their skill is for naught because each note is *too* perfect. Yes *too* perfect. I have noticed that no matter what musical genre you are talking about whether it is classic piano, blues or flamenco guitar, if the performer is too exacting and too precise, too damned skilled if you will, you can rest assured there will be a crowd of people proclaiming that the person has no soul, no feeling.
Guitarists are snobs. And those who are not snobs are snobs who are polite enough to pretend they are not snobs. We know what we want. We want godhood. We want the unattainable flying fingers of fury and anything less is worthless and worthy of ridicule. If every note Grisha plays doesn't sound EXACTLY like Paco or Sabicas then by God he sucks! Worthless. No passion!
And what about us? the guys who come home from work and pretend that practicing tired everyday we can somehow progress? It basically boils down to the fact that we play air guitar, only we use a real guitar and pluck real strings. lets admit it, most of us suck ass. We have moments of amazing control and then the next day it is gone. We have obligations that destroy any momentum we may build in our practice sessions and we come back week after week like posessed ringwraiths to play more air guitar on our real guitars, hearing something other than what we are playing.
Flamenco guitar is a love hate for me. There are days when I swear I sound almost exactly like Sabicas. And it goes away. Then I vow that I will stop playing altogether and give up this addiction unless I can make some sort of progress in such and such amount of time. But I never stop playing. I hold myself up to impossible perfectionistic standards because I am a guitar snob, just like you. I love and hate my guitar playing. I am proud of it and deeply embarrassed by how I play simultaneously. I cannot *possibly* make my guitar sound the way I want it to, and the better I get the more I realize how much I suck.
Do you ever look back at the time you were standing at the crossroads and made a pact with the devil to start playing Flamenco guitar?
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Date Jan. 30 2009 18:52:42
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Aaron)
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Aaron, although I enjoyed reading your lyrical prose, I disagree with about everything you wrote. However, it is interesting you present the example of Grisha. Ron pointed him out to me recently, and I commented (although most respectfully to his fabulous skills) that I find is playing quite stiffly and that a dash of passion would not hurt his performance. I suppose, perhaps with less measured words, some people may mean the same with those youtube comments you read.
All human beings imitate others, that is how we learn. Creating idols and icons is not a whimsical exercise, but an inherent and instinctive need, as it is rejecting those examples, no matter how perfect, we do not relate to.
We do the same between Paco de Lucia and Pena, Amigo and Tomatito. We need to advocate a style which is viscerally closer to us, and arouses and helps our desire to do and grow.
Guitarists aren’t snobs, I suggest they are the opposite. We do not dismiss quickly those less gifted or dedicated than we are, nor do I agree that we may denigrate those who are better than us, solely to earn some self-serving satisfaction that we are better than them.
I neither play to surpass my masters (or my idols) nor to spite anyone less skilled than I might be (if there is any such thing). In fact, I try to play something others don’t, my own music.
Yet each one of us is different, thank God, and that is why i would disagree with your sweepingly generalizing stereotype.
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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Date Jan. 30 2009 19:38:57
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MarcChrys
Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Aaron)
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Hmm, while I recognise and share your dismay at YouTube commentators who make snidey comments about talented guitarists, I really don't recognise much else in what you say. Other guitarists I've met (in person or via email) have generally been extremely helpful and willing to share their wisdom. I don't play guitar to be or sound like Sabicas or Paco - I play because I love music and songwriting and want to express MY musical voice. Coming from a rock/jazz background, I find a tendency among some flamenco aspirants to want to copy the Greats rather strange (particularly when flamenco music traditionally was never written down and was meant to be spontaneous and free) - I'm happy to admire, learn and borrow from the maestros, but I want to create my own style (blending all sorts of influences). And, as for practising some days and feeling like I'm getting nowhere, SURE, we all have those (!), but, overwhelmingly (and I can say this as someone who has been playing guitar for 37 years and flamenco for 2) I am amazed at the progress I've made (judged by my own standard!). Each day when I pick up the guitar it is with a child's simple pleasure at exploring his 'toy' - no pressure, no demands - just a spirit of 'hey, let's see where we can go today'.
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Date Jan. 30 2009 23:17:35
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to MarcChrys)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MarcChrys
when I pick up the guitar it is with a child's simple pleasure at exploring his 'toy' - no pressure, no demands - just a spirit of 'hey, let's see where we can go today'.
Thats a healthy way of thinking (whether its efficient is another question), but I think you are an exception in that. Most flamenco guitarrists IMO think: 'why am i still not there?' Or how I read somewhere: 'flamenco guitarrists are always 3 years away from where they want to be' Or to say it with Diego Morao: "Guitarists are usually all very paranoid; they're always worried. Guitar makes you anxious"
Aaron, i think you are mixing different things, which are right in itself:
1. YouTube comments: Actually there are real guitarrists, real good guitarrists btw. The problem is, most of the "negative" YouTubers are no really good in guitar, or they have no feeling for it. You cant tell if they have no videos uploaded. And they probably know why they dont upload things ;)
2. Guitarrists being perfectionists: I think thats also a true observation, and there is a name for it: Paco de Lucia! I assume most have started due to listening to him and beeing struck by his ability to make the guitar sound like he wants.
3. Your own personal development: I hope everybody reads your post to understand how hard flamenco guitar is. But i think you know the answer, which is practice. If you dont progress, you maybe need a teacher or so.
_____________________________
Фламенко
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Date Jan. 31 2009 1:35:24
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MarcChrys
Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to John O.)
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I agree. In any area of life some people will carp and criticise - usually driven by envy, ignorance or arrogance. Ignore them! Most people I see playing the guitar (busking, in concert or on YouTube etc), I think 'He's good! I like what he's playing and his passion and sensitivity' rather than 'Huh, his thumb came over the top of the neck' or 'He missed the beat in that compa'). In whatever activity I've done, I've steered clear or kept at arms-length the 'culture' of that activity - e.g. shops (guitar shops where young lads hang around playing Stairway to Heaven!) or clubs (e.g. climbing clubs where people happily witter on for hours about the most trivial technical aspects of climbing equipment), so I don't ever get too 'hung up' about comparing myself to others (better or worse than me), or beating myself up about an unattainable 'perfection'. Maybe I'm deluded (!), I'm no maestro, but I LIKE most of what I play (usually my own compositions or improvisations - and they seem to give other people pleasure), get quite excited about how I keep learning new things, and just enjoy the MUSIC the guitar allows me to create (rather than fixating on technique). Sometimes the most simple-to-play pieces are the best. So, while I appreciate the honesty and candour of Aaron's post, I just found it slightly saddening/mystifying (I'm sure he's perked up by now!). and it made me question whether I'm a 'true' flamenco player at all :(
It seems we play guitar for different reasons. Some seem to be driven by a desire to become virtuoso performers, and if they don't get there they want to give up, others (like me) just enjoy making music, sailing into a new ocean of possibilities, and, hopefully, becoming better players (technically and emotionally) as we do so.
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Date Jan. 31 2009 5:00:15
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Ramirez)
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quote:
"gjMichelob's comments, though he is clearly articulate and intelligent, could do with a dash less pretension"
Cleverly put, Ramirez, to expose the danger of my own snobbery. I cannot disagree with you.
Much of the criticism we read is moved by pretentiously upholstered ignorance.
If my opinion conveys that unpleasant impression, I am absolutely embarrassed and apologize, accordingly.
I am no musicologist, nor an authority on flamenco. ‘just played guitar on&off since I was a child, learning on the same day I started Dylan’s “Mr. Tambourine Man” and Carulli’s “andante in Sol Maggiore” may be for they both share the same key. As I aged it was all about classical guitar, and later Cello, to appreciate classical music and orchestration. I enjoy any music, played by anyone, even on my doorbell, or on the phone keys.
When I finally stumbled upon a Jim Opfer’s video a couple of years ago, his Solea, which in turn linked me to a Vicente Amigo’s Solea, I discovered a new world, a treasure of technique and style unknown to me. All I know about this music is though obsessively listening (and now watching, with youtube) to it.
However, as a general statement, I find that a Virtuoso is likely to be criticized of frigid mechanical discipline, it is the inherent danger of flawlessly reproducing intricate phrases. Classical music stages are replete with the “enfant prodige” phenomena and acrobats of music. I find it regretful that audiences will be amused by that luna-park-like performance. I am with Brahms, artistry is not in the notes we play, but in the pause between them.
I forgive the occasional misplay more than a digitally edited recording, I am more inspired by a passionate acceleration albeit violating the score, than a metronome sanctioned music box.
We all enjoy music and playing an instrument for different reasons: speed or ostentatious complexity never did it for me, but I am high when calmly striking an A major chord on a dry sounding blanca and my heart beat seems to measure the lingering sound filling the pause.
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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Date Jan. 31 2009 7:13:54
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MarkMc
Posts: 121
Joined: Oct. 1 2005
From: Wilsonville, Oregon
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Doitsujin)
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For me, I know my limits... While working crazy overtime at my job right now, having a teenager who is a handful ATM, household chores etc., I know that all I'll ever be is a "hobby" guitarist. When I do have time to play I simply enjoy just that. The beauty of the guitar, the music that I'm working on. I'm not even thinking about trying to sound like someone else. But there is some progress no matter how little it may be. I'm not in a hurry, and don't have to play for others. It's a hobby and that's it. Although I really wish I had time to participate in the beginning or intermediate challenge this year. I'm really bummed about that. Maybe next year... (geeze, maybe I'll have more time during retirement age when the kid is all grown and it's just the misses and me ha!)
And oh yes, there are guitar snobs out there. I've met quite a few in person throughout my life. And generally I feel it's because they're NOT good enough and threatened by others. They don't like sharing info etc.. But that's just a few to the mostly good folks that I've met out there.
Like most of you folks here on the foro! 
cheers,
Mark
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-MarkMc
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Date Jan. 31 2009 7:25:49
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MarcChrys
Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to bursche)
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This fear & loathing thing was a bit alien to me, but now I think I understand... As a new member to this site, I've been trawling through some of the old topics and I was taken aback by the level of 'snobbery' (aka slagging off, nitpicking, fault-finding, damning with faint praise, mockery) I've encountered. For example, I've learned that Paco alone is Untouchable, that Juan Martin is a figure of fun, Manitas de Plata's timing is sloppy, that Rodrigo y Gabriela are not worth listening to, that it matters dreadfully whether one uses a p-m-i rather than i-m-i rasgueado, that only full-blood gypsies can play flamenco, that only strings made from the intestines of cats killed in Seville produce the 'true' flamenco sound - ok, I made the last one up) etc.! By the end of my trawling, half of me wanted to 'escape' to the comforting real world embrace of my guitar (to restore the primal sense of fun that flamenco gives me) yet the other half of me felt strangely paralyzed with fear that I might hold the guitar the wrong way, use the wrong strings, play some flamenco nueva-influenced 'tourist' piece that would damn me to the section of Hades reserved for apostates :(
Oh well, at least I can feel safe playing in front of my cat....
"Pobble, why are you giving me THAT look? What d'you mean, my rasgueados lack duende?!" :)
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Date Jan. 31 2009 11:05:20
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to MarcChrys)
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quote:
For example, I've learned that Paco alone is Untouchable, that Juan Martin is a figure of fun, Manitas de Plata's timing is sloppy, that Rodrigo y Gabriela are not worth listening to, that it matters dreadfully whether one uses a p-m-i rather than i-m-i rasgueado, that only full-blood gypsies can play flamenco, that only strings made from the intestines of cats killed in Seville produce the 'true' flamenco sound - ok, I made the last one up) etc.! By the end of my trawling, half of me wanted to 'escape' to the comforting real world embrace of my guitar (to restore the primal sense of fun that flamenco gives me) yet the other half of me felt strangely paralyzed with fear that I might hold the guitar the wrong way, use the wrong strings, play some flamenco nueva-influenced 'tourist' piece that would damn me to the section of Hades reserved for apostates :(
Nah Marc,
Most students are not really snobs, they just have a heightened awareness of what's lacking in their OWN playing and can easily hear the same in others.
All in all, we are basically decent people, frustrated and trying to do better...and GOTTA TAKE IT OUT ON SOMEBODY GODDAMM! 
cheers,
Ron
PS...
quote:
Paco alone is Untouchable, that Juan Martin is a figure of fun, Manitas de Plata's timing is sloppy, that Rodrigo y Gabriela are not worth listening to,
Not true also IMO..
They are all Artists who have given much pleasure to audiences all over the world.
(Except for Paco, of course whose last concert here in Scotland was very disappointing IMO.. )
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Date Jan. 31 2009 11:34:39
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