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I have seen a long tread about Juan Martin and I dont want to start all over but I do have a question about him, or better, the flamenco teaching he does.
Lots of you dont like him and I have to agree. I can listen to Sabicas for hours but not to JM. BUT he explains how to use your fingers and the different techniques used in flamenco, then I watch a video you all agree to that it is great (cant remember with one but it was not of JM) and I see that the guy playing it is using the exact same techniques.
This is confusing for me and my question is if I should study JM's material or throw it away and find a better "teacher
So, is it wise to study this and move up later or does he teach the wrong things witch are hard to get rid of later on?
By the way, I think there are some realy good players here and I am a bit shocked of my own playing skills if I compare it to the stuff you play. Man, I cant even play Leonard Cohen without 100 err's in one song. Need to practice, I know!
and I see that the guy playing it is using the exact same techniques.
Uh oh! Before the action gets started, let me say, it is not the "techinques" themselves that is the issue, rather, the way they are used. Does that make sense? That is the thing you need to learn to distinguish to develop your "tastes" for the art. In the mean time, it is exactly that, which becomes the "arguement". No one says Juan does not do rasgueado, or tremolo, or picado (techniques of playing flamenco), rather, the WAY he does it. Hope you follow?
You just do that JM thing and when you finish go on to the next step. Don't look behind you. Don't look aside. Carry on and try not to mix up a dvd teacher with players like tomatito or paco.
Oke, so if I read correctly, its the way that he does a rasgueado thats wrong for instance. Then it would seem to me that I should not learn it like he does since its not the right way. And so I have to forget about JM.
Then what? I live in Holland and when it comes to flamenco people say, hey I know that.... the gipsy kings indeed, with a big smile. I know its perhaps the best way to go to a teacher but he might be teaching me the JM stile so this leaves me with the question what I should learn.
Yes, and buy the compas metronome software from Graf-Martinez for 16$ online (if i remember well). I think you can't spend better 16$ in flamenco learning than with this metronome (just a little "beware" : on some slow computers, if you are running a lot of programs in the background, the metronome can have timing issues, dues to the computer overload. And a timing issue, for a metronome, it's a bad thing
I think the old adage that “you don’t need to be a great player to be a good teacher” applies here. Applies to Dennis Koster too: as a Flamenco player- not so hot, but his books are an excellent learning resource for beginners. I think most folks here would agree that Martin’s teaching material is very good to start learning with, it’s just that when it comes to judging him as a player at the world-class level, especially considering his level of fame and notoriety in the Flamenco world, a lot/many/most/all-but-a-few(?) people here feel that he doesn’t measure up, which in the end has pretty much nothing to do with whether or not his teaching books/dvds are any good. All the Flamenco methods out there have their strengths and weaknesses and I think Martin’s is just as good as any of the others available (the ones that I’ve tried myself, of course). I’m about halfway through is El Arte Flamenco series, and of all the materials that I’ve been using I feel that I’ve probably gotten the most out of his stuff, so far. Anyway, bottom line point is that if you’ve already got his book or dvd or whatever I can’t see any reason why you shouldn’t work through it, dig out the good stuff, and then move on to the next thing. I can’t imagine that there’s any danger of you learning any improper technique from his book that will harm your playing in the future, if that’s what you’re worried about.
I totally agree..it's the same thing for Oscar Herrero, Gerard Graf, etc. They are good, but they are not making a big solo carreer. Don't judge them on their solo work, you want some learning material so let's go...
From my experience in starting with JM's videos, one of the biggest problems I encounterd was his teaching. He is not a teacher, at least not in those videos. I don't know about his recent materials. "This is called alzapua... tic ki dum tic ki dum. Here is a falseta that uses alzapua....tic ki dum tic ki dum " Umm... Excuse me Senor Martin, could you explain that??
The first lesson, solea, was great. It took me at least six weeks of practice to get that lesson down. Lesson 2, alegrias, took me a year and a half! Way to big of a gap in level for a beginner.
You don't write a research paper with one source do you? This is what srshea is saying. There is no complete source. I started with the JM videos because they were available at a local store. Get all of them if you can. Or get Graf Martinez like Tom said.
Actually I thought the same in almost all the vids... Except perhaps the Herrero series. The first one i had was Moraito. The sort of thing which makes you want to quit in 5 minutes... Seems the guys are in a hurry and have a plane to take.. "And now alzapua full speed, because i'm off to Rio de Janeiro" But for sure it's too long to explain everything and their media are full of time/space constraints (vids or books). So they assume that the audience will have some basis or will do some researchs... When i teach at the university, i simply don't have the time to start from scratch, even if there are some poor students who are beginners in the field... But this "fight" with a hard material/teaching is also very good for the teaching process I believe.
And Yes, for the "several" methods thing. But, don't make my mistake Rob : I grabbed so much methods, transcriptions, etc I was changing palo/song each 15 minutes. So I wasn't able (and i'm not much more now) to play one palo correctly, and to understand all it's complex aspects. So i guess a good behavior would be to have two or three methods and also two transcription books (and for sure a teacher, as long as it's possible). Not too few, not too much...
Rob, Is it possible for you to take any lessons from John Fillmore in Amsterdam? Just a single one would be a good supplement to your learning....and he would answer your questions most practically. I know this for a fact. He's a good fellow as well, most approachable. All the best, Andy.
i dont really have anything to add to whats been said.
but i bet 1 million bucs there will be atlist 100 replies on this tread, and if i try really hard i bet i can even guess what they are all gonna say and how its gonna finish
its the way that he does a rasgueado thats wrong for instance.
Sorry, that is not really how I meant it. "Doing" a rasgueado is a technique thing. You can learn rasgueado "how Juan does it". That is fine. But more how you apply those techniques to the big picture, is what I meant. It is a complex mix of elements that go into playing a bit "por Solea". Point being, you could possibly do the same exact techniques as taught by JM, yet produce a "Solea" that any aficionado would be impressed by.
To figure that out, you need to keep your mind and ears open. Listen to lots of different players and styles until you eventually figure it out for yourself. Do a search for recommended listening. Many lists have been made already.
Many thanks for all the help you gave, I think I get the picture and it would be wise to have some other material on how to play flamenco and then filter out whats seems to be the right technique for a particular piece.
This is gonna sound stupid but I dont think I should start with a metronome and the reason is this, I cant keep the rhythm at any song and thats a handicap I have got. And I am not trying to get to the level were I get to play for an audiance so there is no point for ME to get the rhythm of flamenco. Its to complex for my limited rhythm section :-)
Perhaps later on when I get the techniques right I can work on the complex rhythm of flamenco. For now its good enough to be able to pick a simple song and the tabs for it and study it long enough till I can play along.
But first I am gonna build a flamenco guitar and after that Ill study on a song and upload that to the forum. But dont hold your breath, you wont servive
Robbie i understand what you are saying i gues but i think rather than not playing the rythm, pick eazyer pieces that come with audios and focus on trying to imitate the feel and rithm as much as you can, its a good idea to start developing good practice systems early on.
learning something without the rithm is just making twice as much work for yourself in the future even tho it might not seem like it atm. weather u do it not or later u still " HAVE" to do it, might as well develop it now.
What a bunch of crap. Flamenco without rythm. I'm going to learn how to drive a car but I got no sense of direction. So I drive around where there are no roads so it won't bother me.
wow take it eazy Koella lol, i am sure u werent a expert when u were a beginner, i remember having the same atitude, but i had noone to tell me and i snaped out of it myself, but i could have saved some time beeing smarter but like anyone starting out , u always try to look for shortcuts lol.
learning to learn is just as much of a challenge as the acctual material itself
Ha ha ha. I agree with koella!! I almost fell off my chair when I read that robbie is gonna learn flamenco but not bother about the rhythm.
What's also funny is that although some of us do have a grasp on the rhythms of flamenco, Not one of us seems to have a grasp on how to spell the word rhythm. Me included!! I made sure I visited Dictionary.com before I posted.
Please robbie, try and play with rhythm even if you have to go ultra slow.
Of course I do bother with the rhythm, but rhithm has always botherd me in the worst possible way.
Suppose we where on a formula 1 track and You have a nice ferrari and your name happend to be Michael Shumacher. I on the other hand got a bicycle and I happend to be myself. then there is no match, I can cycle all I want but NEVER keep up with you even if I broke every speed record in the whole world or universe on a bicycle.
So the ferrari is your sence to rhythm, the bicycle is mine.
So I wrote that I want to play a song along with some music it meens that I'll try to get the rhythm but that does not mean I HAVE compas. If I take a seat in your formula 1 and let you drive, we both get there in the same time. BUT DONT make the mistake of handing me the steering wheel or you end up dead.....or worse....
So in the end I hope to play some flamenco but if it is out of compas, I am sorry but I did the best I could, but I am still on a bicycle.
This is gonna sound stupid but I dont think I should start with a metronome and the reason is
Yes it does. No need to rephrase, it is quite clear what you mean. Heard it a thousand times. The ferrari thing is off, you will be on your bike forever if that is how you get started. And flamenco is the track, so you should not even be on the thing with your bike anyway. Compas is not so hard as folks make it sound, don't think it is something to learn "later". If you don't start learning all along, you are learning NOTHING. Worse, you have to relearn almost all when you decide to focus on it.
But there is nothing wrong with admiting you don't want to learn how to play with good rhythm. If you are happy just making some pretty sounding notes, go for it. You can never play with other people, which would be a shame, but you can be happy playing solo for as long as you want. Now is the time to make the choice.
Let me share with you my beginner's experience : I started, like lots of people, by saying and thinking exactly what you've said. BUT, after three-four years of playing, I painfully realized in several occasions (and in this foro) that I was still a TOTAL beginner in flamenco, after all these longs months of work and efforts. So, the question is : do you want to be in some "always stuck at beginner level" relation with flamenco ??
The point that is central here is that a very large amount of what makes flamenco great to listen and play, is rhythm, compas and palo structure ! It's fun because it's fast, complex, groovy, syncopated, etc. So, if you like the music, you can't really dislike or neglect the compas and rythm...
And the problem is that when you begin by ignoring the rythm, as I made it myself, it's very very hard to get back, like Ricardo said. So one day you pay the bill, and it's rather annoying because you could have avoided that bill rather easily...
And about the "i won't show my playing or play with others". Look, you've already said you wanted to make an upload ! Believe me, I was thinking the same, but after several years of pratice, you WANT to express your music to others, and even if you don't want it, you'll be placed into situation where you play with others (it can be also with your family, friends, teacher, foroflamenco mates, etc. ). It's not a "i wanna be a star or a pro" thing. It's just that music take sense in sharing with people. When you'll be advanced enought to feel this, you will know...
I'm now ashamed and frustrated because i'm a full beginner after several years of playing ! Just because I'm not being able to hold a simple compas. On the other aspects of guitar playing, i think i can do some things right. But everywhere in flamenco land, and in my own opinion by listening to records, the truth is I'm still a total beginner. And it's not really pleasing.
Please, manage to avoid this boring situation by giving a little attention to compas. That is not to say giving up everything but compas, it's just trying to invest yourself 50/50 : note, techniques, musicallity / compas, palos structures... My 1 cent Saludos-
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i dont really have anything to add to whats been said. 
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