RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Full Version)

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Stu -> [Deleted] (Jan. 28 2009 15:37:47)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 28 2009 15:49:00



Stu -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 28 2009 16:00:22)

all this compas/half compas talk is upsetting me!!... I wanna ask a question about it but every time I write it out I confuse myself!!!![&:]

And I thought I was doing ok.[:@]

maybe a rethink in the morning with a clearer head.[8|]



at_leo_87 -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 28 2009 16:36:28)

quote:

all this compas/half compas talk is upsetting me!!

yeah, me too! it's hard to count. my mouth can't keep up so i don't know what's going on logically but feeling the rhythm wise, i understand and get it.



cathulu -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 28 2009 20:48:55)

Damn you, damn you all to hell! [:D][:D] I started to practice this today and got the first four chords right at least [8|], and the arpeggio stuff is gonna be OK, but the descending falseta at the end of page two - it is so syncopated it is killing me! Aarrghhh!!!!



Stu -> [Deleted] (Jan. 29 2009 1:54:00)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 29 2009 1:54:10



Stu -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 2:01:43)

quote:

yeah, me too! it's hard to count. my mouth can't keep up so i don't know what's going on logically but feeling the rhythm wise, i understand and get it.


maybe that's enough man?

If your feeling it, do you really need to now the numbers??

that's not rhetorical....if someone can answer that it'd be great.



John O. -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 2:47:45)

Think of of this way: if you count to 12 when you play you have keep 12 numbers in mind and whether they have an accent or not. Too much info at once, and with a palo that always throws in half compas' everywhere.

You really only need to think 1,2,3,1,2,3 or 1,2,1,2,1,2. When you do this you'll find fast palos like bulerias a lot easier than a super slow soleares where you can get lost a lot more easily.

In Spain often they count 1 - and 2 - and 3 - 4 - 5 -



John O. -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 4:49:41)

quote:

Damn you, damn you all to hell! I started to practice this today and got the first four chords right at least , and the arpeggio stuff is gonna be OK, but the descending falseta at the end of page two - it is so syncopated it is killing me! Aarrghhh!!!!


Three parts:
Arpeggios are six times normal compás 3,6,8,10,12
Just at the start of the picado it's three times the half compas 8,10,12
Then from the thumb stroke of A just before the chords are played again the normal compás once ending on 10.

Try listening to the original like this - hope it helps and doesn't confuse you more [:D]



bursche -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 4:49:43)

Ah, Moraito!
An all time favourite.

Maybe I'll join in. I already learned this falseta some time ago, but since then I allowed it to get forgotten.
Time to warm this up - It's all about the groove!



mrMagenta -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 12:43:50)

[:o][:o][:o] ...I think we might need a challenge for the advanced players! [:D][:(]

This is a great falseta btw. Good pick Florian.



Stu -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 14:43:15)

Everytime I play this piece and bulerias falsetas in general, I never know what to do with my foot tapping. (I've read plenty of threads about this in the past but never concentrated on sorting it out)
I've been playing it very slowly and tapping my foot every beat, but as soon as I start to speed up its obviously not possible (and its very tiring) and probably very wrong

I just been watching Moraito play Buleriando on the encuentro dvd and he taps every other beat. 12,2,4,6,8,10. so I've been doing this and something very cool seems to be happening???

Am I getting somewhere??



John O. -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 14:55:41)

What's really tough at first is the tap with the foot going
12 - tap - tap - 3 - tap - tap - 6 - tap - tap - 9 - tap - tap
while accenting the 3, 6, 8, 10, 12.
I've seen him doing this too.

Try it for a laugh! [:D]



srshea -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 16:39:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu
I just been watching Moraito play Buleriando on the encuentro dvd and he taps every other beat. 12,2,4,6,8,10. so I've been doing this and something very cool seems to be happening???

Am I getting somewhere??


Stu,

I’m actually invloved in the beginner’s challenge, so I really shouldn’t even be on this thread…..

Re: the foot-tapping, I hear ya. Several months ago I spent the better part of an entire weekend buckling down and working that problem out once and for all (at a basic, initial level, at least). I read through all those 7-8 page foot-tapping threads you mentioned, I duct-taped the metronome to my forehead, I laughed, I cried, I tapped and tapped, and in the end I settled on that every other/even beat tapping you’ve picked up from Moraito. To me it’s the most natural approach-feels good; makes sense mentally, and it tends to be pretty “all-purpose”. It doesn’t always work for every feel, though, so sometimes a tap-1-2-tap-4-5-tap-7-tap-9-tap-11 is my second choice.

That tap-tap tap-tap one John mentioned is rough. Better for a cry than a laugh…. [:-]



at_leo_87 -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 17:03:53)

quote:

maybe that's enough man?

If your feeling it, do you really need to now the numbers??

that's not rhetorical....if someone can answer that it'd be great.


i like to know where everything is at all times. i used to play everything by feel. when i started playing flamenco, i told myself i would learn how to count once and for all. i guess maybe i'm being a perfectionist.

so far, i'm tapping every other beat. it really helps with the counting in six thing. can someone give me a link to the foot tapping thread? i went through fourteen pages, and couldn't find what i was looking for.



srshea -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 17:20:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87
can someone give me a link to the foot tapping thread? i went through fourteen pages, and couldn't find what i was looking for.


There's at least one other really long one out there, but here's one I have bookmarked:


Bulerias Foot Tapping

Here's another thing I have bookmarked, too:

Compas

In some of these really long threads that get heated and murky I've found that Ron's posts are really good for sort of splitting the difference and essentialising the points being made, making for some easily understandable summings up of all this stuff......



at_leo_87 -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 17:25:04)

thanks srshea!
did you have to search manually for these through each page?
i dont think the search engine likes me much.



srshea -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 17:29:56)

Well, I've had those two bookmarked for a long time, so I don't remember how I got around to 'em. I'll see what else I've got.

I don't think the "search" feature likes any of us, so you shouldn't take it too personally. I have managed to get it to work at times, but more often than not it just tells me to take a hike....



at_leo_87 -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 18:10:44)

i'm quoting ron from that bulerias foot tapping thread.

quote:

One thing I can say though, is that I'm sorry I learned this 12, 3, 6, 8, 10 thing for Bulerias as you've really got to unlearn it again to play with any degree of rhythm IMO.


DAMN YOU GRAF-MARTINEZ VOLUME 2 CHAPTER 8!!!



srshea -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 18:24:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87
DAMN YOU GRAF-MARTINEZ VOLUME 2 CHAPTER 8!!!

Yeah, the bulerias stuff in his method is all really good, I think, but his foot-tapping approaches seem like a really bad way to start out. I think he says something about the every-other/even-beat tapping being too hard and not to be fooled with unless you were born in the caves of Sacromonte. [:-]



Güiro -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 21:14:48)

Count me in. Can anyone provide the links to the six beat bulerias posts? the search function doesn't seem to be working properly. Also, I we supposed to learn the whole song?



ToddK -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 29 2009 23:33:48)

stop counting!! That's what's messing you up!



John O. -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 30 2009 0:52:11)

True, that. That's what I've heard at countless workshops too.

At the very beginning it's important for understanding but it's much better to learn to feel a two and a three and know which order you should put them in.



mark indigo -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 30 2009 1:54:14)

i think it doesn't really matter what counting you use, 'cos it's a means to an end

i learnt to count in 12's, with 12, 3, 6, 8, 10 foot tapping

then i played a lot with a dancer who did lot of jerez buleria with what we called "odd sixes" and Ricardo calls "half compas" (i think claude worms transcriptions use that term too, but we didn't know, so we made a name and called it "odd six"!).

so i had to get my head round 12=6, and that 4=10, etc. and mostly tapped every other beat ie. 12,2,4 and/or 6/8/10

i did a lot of counting! (eg.the arpegio in the moraito falseta, 12&1, &2&, 3&4, &5&, etc.)

lots of people, especially spanish, said not to count, but without counting i was totally lost.... but i did have one really good teacher who said that if you haven't grown up with it you probably gonna have to count...

...but what about counting "dum--de,dum--de,dum-" (12--&,2--&,4)

or "chicken tikka chicken tikka chicken tikka" 12,&,1,&,2,&,3,&,4,&,5,&

or "apricot, pineapple, apple, orange, lemon" (12,3,6,8,10)

ok, i'm not being totally seriousl here, but the point is you could use anything!

notice how dance teachers use verbal sounds like "taki-taki-ta" etc., it's a form of "counting" but it's a step on from counting with numbers

as i see it, the people that say "learn to count" are right

the people that say "count this way" are right

the people who say "count that way" are right

and the people that say "don't count" are right too

if you can't "just feel it" (maan![:D]) then learn to count, but eventually the counting becomes just rhythmic sounds, becomes the rhythm, or what we call "feeling it" (which is really a "poetry" or fancy name for a kind of knowing)

and btw i learnt to foot tap the 1,2 4,5 7,8 10,11 by using a programmable metronome to click on those beats only, and playing to it, and in a short time i was able to tap my foot to those clicks and play along with it....



Doitsujin -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 30 2009 3:02:28)

quote:

What's really tough at first is the tap with the foot going
12 - tap - tap - 3 - tap - tap - 6 - tap - tap - 9 - tap - tap


Thats not very usefull to orientate. Its one of the dogmas which are confusing beginners. I would recommend to tab every second beat, no matter if you dont play just media-compases.


I learned the falseta yesterday and now flexing on details.. As I read the problems here, and knowing the falseta now... I want to tell, that Im in the wrong class here. I dont want to be the selfish high nosed idiot, but it would really be unfair if I would do this challenge.
So, I will only participate in the advanced challenge and chancel here. We have some very good players here, and it will become very hard, mabe too hard but fair to the intermediate challengers in the end. I hope thats ok for all.



bursche -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 30 2009 4:10:51)

Just to confirm: I'll send something in and take part of the challenge.
I'll try to put a little "El Tempul"- rasgueado at the end of the falseta =)



XXX -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 30 2009 4:33:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche

I'll try to put a little "El Tempul"- rasgueado at the end of the falseta =)


Cool, but the mp3s are supposed to be anonymous to have a good judging. Another thing is, i still dont know what kind of alterations are allowed. I assumed you have to play it note for note no ensure that all are judged by the playing, not by the composition.



Pimientito -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 30 2009 5:30:39)

quote:

12 - tap - tap - 3 - tap - tap - 6 - tap - tap - 9 - tap - tap
while accenting the 3, 6, 8, 10, 12.
I've seen him doing this too.


I would advise any intermediate student NOt to try this. You are all going to end up with less compas than before you started. Only paco de lucia and the pros can do this well.
There is some good overall advice here. Some of you will find it easier to count, some will be able to do it by feel. Its easy for someone with an a natural feel for compas to say that counting is wrong but this is how many people learn to start with.

Try singing the falseta to a buleria rhythm track . You should be able to make it fit compas. Next try singing the falseta and clapping palmas. (dont worry if you cant sing, hear it in your head and keep palmas) If you can do that you will find it 10 times easier to play it that way.



bursche -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 30 2009 5:34:55)

I was more like kidding.
of course I will play the exact notes.
What follows is a question of mood.
It's fun anyway.



Ron.M -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 30 2009 5:35:23)

quote:

I want to tell, that Im in the wrong class here. I dont want to be the selfish high nosed idiot, but it would really be unfair if I would do this challenge.
So, I will only participate in the advanced challenge


That's very decent of you Doit!

All of the challenges are really for those who find the level of material higher than they are currently playing, be it in rhythm, aire, or technique.

Otherwise it ceases to be a fun competition for everyone else.

Florian's original idea was to give students a bit of impetus to aim for something that challenges them.

Bursche....are you listening? [:D]

All I can say that if it appears obvious that somebody is handling any of the set pieces with supreme ease and style, then I will award my marks according to the highest criteria and nitpick every detail and subtract marks accordingly, as I hope other judges will too!

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: Challenge, Intermediate Thread (Jan. 30 2009 5:49:06)

ooopsy [:D]
Sorry i didnt want to sound competetive, really! [:o]



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