RE: Some Alegrias questions (Full Version)

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Pimientito -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 19 2009 1:58:22)

THANK YOU

So you heard that story too! Can you expand on it? Is there a reference?



Pimientito -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 19 2009 2:07:27)

quote:

Flamencoexport.com "the traditional "tirititrán" that has been invented, according to Chano Lobato, by Ignacio Espeleta during a 'fiesta' where they forgot the lyrics of the song."


quote:

El famoso tirititrán.Proviene de una buena borrachera del gran Ignacio Espeleta, hace casi un siglo.El no acordarse de la letra,creó toda una escuela en este y en otros muchos palos.Fue un cantaor que aparte de cantar la letra, intentaba hacer el sonido de la guitarra.Un cachondo.


quote:

esflamenco.com "According to tradition, it was the Cádiz cantaor Enrique Butrón who shaped its flamenco mould, and later it was Ignacio Espeleta who introduced the lead, or preparatory stage, that is most commonly used at present, the “Tirititrán tran, tran,...” which was made so popular by the Sevillian Manolo Vargas years later. "
"Another of its traits is the traditional “tirititrán” which, according to Chano Lobato, was invented by Ignacio Espeleta during a party in which he forgot the lyrics."


And here is the link to chano lobato reminiscing on the occasion




Guest -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 19 2009 4:10:36)

Hola Pimientito

I posted this some time ago but the search button is not great, so I repeat it.

It is said that during an performance of "Calles de Cádiz" a flamenco theatre show of La Argentina which first appeared in 1933, Ignacio Espeleta, who was playing the part of the shoemaker, was suffering the effects of an all night juerga and when it fell to him to sing alegrías, he forgot the words and improvised tirititran, which was later popularised by Manolo Vargas.

This is oral history which is taken as gospel in Cádiz, but, as Richardo rightly pointed out, it is little more than anecdote and of little importance.

Suerte

Sean



mark indigo -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 19 2009 9:34:59)

quote:

You and Mark seem to be getting a bit confused. The campanas is NOT a palo. Its the secton of guitar work that fits the silencio in Alegria de baile. Its called campanas or "bells" because it starts (traditionally ) with 5 chords in the minor key which imitate the solemn striking of a bell.


i know it's not a palo, but the trad guitar music for the "silencio" section of alegrias, i was just wondering if the music came first or the name, i assume the music, and the name "campanas" - bells - came to describe the sound of those opening 5 chords afterwards, but i don't really know, and it's not really that important to me, just curious....

anyway, i gotta go out and play so no time to post a long ramble tonight (you'll be pleased to know), but thanks everyone for sharing info, great thread



Pimientito -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 20 2009 9:31:13)

quote:

Why is the Castellana called the Castellana?


I got an answer today from a dance teacher in Sacromonte that is a bit more than a guess (but still anecdotal non the less). She says that letra for this part comes from Alegrias en Rosa which is closely related musically to the Jota Aragonaise. Because of the Aragon connection it is known as the Castellana.



Guest -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 20 2009 11:55:16)

quote:


I got an answer today from a dance teacher in Sacromonte that is a bit more than a guess


Hola Pimientito

I would say a bit less than a guess [;)] though I wouldn't expect someone from Sacramonte to be much of an expert on Alegrías. It used to be said that alegrías por rosas was a guitar solo played in E, but this is nonsense. There exists (but not according to all) a cantiñas called Rosas, which has its specific melody and is claimed by singers from Sanlúcar de Barrameda. Mariana Cornejo recorded a version and it will be on Carmen de la Jara´s forthcoming encyclopaedia.

The widely held but also disputed theory is that Alegrías developed from the Jota, but here we are still working with the kind of anecdotal evidence which plagues flamenco still[:o]

Suerte

Seán



Pimientito -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 20 2009 12:12:23)

quote:

The widely held but also disputed theory is that Alegrías developed from the Jota, but here we are still working with the kind of anecdotal evidence which plagues flamenco still


Unfortunately there was no way of recording this stuff at the time and so we only know from manuscript and oral tradition. Whilst the evidence may only be anecdotal we know what the Jota from Aragon sounds like and would have sounded like in the late 1400's. Its a compound rhythm with chord changes from A to E. We know that the Jota Aragonaise became the Jota de Cadiz. We know the Gypsies travelled through Aragon and would have taken the Jota with them to Andalucia. Ok, it's all anecdotal and supposition but not a bad theory.



veet -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 20 2009 13:22:30)

colletilla, a "little tail" is a truncated form of the letra. Examples:

"a la botica mare, no vaya sola,
que el boticario prima, gasta pistola.
Gasta pistola prima, gasta pistola
a la botica mare ay, no vaya sola."

(This can be further shortened to just the first 2 lines.)

another:
"En ese tren chiquetito de Matagorda
si p'arrancar hace falta palmita sorda
si no hay salero prima, si no hay salero
se duerme el maquinista ay, y el fogonero"

A full on letra has 7 lines:
Ay, a mi me dan
las sirenas ay de los barcos
escalofrio, a mi me dan
las sirenas ay de los barcos
ay cuando dicen, ay que se van

(with a repeat on the last couplet)



Ricardo -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 20 2009 17:50:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

quote:


I got an answer today from a dance teacher in Sacromonte that is a bit more than a guess


Hola Pimientito

I would say a bit less than a guess [;)] though I wouldn't expect someone from Sacramonte to be much of an expert on Alegrías. It used to be said that alegrías por rosas was a guitar solo played in E, but this is nonsense. There exists (but not according to all) a cantiñas called Rosas, which has its specific melody and is claimed by singers from Sanlúcar de Barrameda. Mariana Cornejo recorded a version and it will be on Carmen de la Jara´s forthcoming encyclopaedia.

The widely held but also disputed theory is that Alegrías developed from the Jota, but here we are still working with the kind of anecdotal evidence which plagues flamenco still[:o]

Suerte

Seán


Agreed. The musical thing to note about Rosas is that is a longish letra, and it changes keys to the minor mode, briefly. Like silencio. And alegria de Cordoba....but that is another story.

anyway, the castellano section is almost always choreographed to the colatilla length melody. anything more, and it is just another letra, which is fine too.

I have already forgotten Tati's alegrias but it was crazy with letras all over the place, and time changes, and stops, etc.

Anyway, again, I am trying to point out the practical musical importance of this stuff, the terms, but the trivia is fun though too I guess, but not practically helpful IMO.

Ricardo



mark indigo -> RE: Some Alegrias questions (Jan. 22 2009 9:44:21)

quote:

Why is the Castellana called the Castellana?


i mentioned before that i've heard it called "Paseo de Castilla" and i'm just wondering if anyone else has heard it called that before? and if not maybe the guy that told me that was b/s-ing me.... i took it all in at first, but after a while started to take things with larger and larger pinches of salt[:'(][:'(]



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