News from the workshop: soundport (Full Version)

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Message

Anders Eliasson -> News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 8 2009 23:25:45)

Hi

I justed wanted to share some photos of a guitar with a soundport.
Its not a flamenca, but a hybrid, with a little bit more body and more sustain in the sound.
This means that I cant really tell you how a soundport will work on a flamenca, but I hope to find the time to build a Blanca 2A with a soundport in order to test the concept.
On this guitar it works very well. It doesnt change a lot. Its not a revolution but it gives a fel that you have a more ambient sound, that its more around you. and you can hear yourself some more. I made a classical with two smaller soundports and the feel was the same.

Well, here she is:



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Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 8 2009 23:26:52)

back



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Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 8 2009 23:29:06)

front



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Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 8 2009 23:30:27)

rosette



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Taranto -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 9 2009 2:00:08)

Very nice. Interesting, ceder top and cypress back/sides, right? How does it sound?

By the way what glue are you using for the rosette? Looks like some kind of black glue.



TANúñez -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 9 2009 3:50:01)

quote:

Its not a flamenca, but a hybrid, with a little bit more body and more sustain in the sound.
This means that I cant really tell you how a soundport will work on a flamenca, but I hope to find the time to build a Blanca 2A with a soundport in order to test the concept.


This looks like a flamenca with a soundport to me. What keeps it from being so? more body and sustain?

Was the soundport cut out before or after bending?



mrMagenta -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 9 2009 13:16:04)

Truly Beautiful. Is the sound hole only for hearing oneself better, or does it change how the guitar projects?

Is the action on this guitar set to a flamenco standard? Interesting instrument.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 9 2009 13:29:00)

Taranto, I use superglue for the rosette.

Tom, The difference between this guitar and a flamenca blanca is that the 7 braces are more angled. More like Torres or Hauser compared to Barbero. Besides that, mass is higher in the bridge and in the fingerboard. This in order to make attack softer and give more sustain.
As a whole the guitar is more flamenco than classical. It handles bulerias well even without a capo, but the basses are rounder and warmer than on a full breed flamenco and the trebles sustain more.

MrMagenta. The setup is flamenco. I dont know if the guitar projects more, but it projects very well. In order to answer such a question I would have to build two identical instruments. one with and one without a soundport. I hope to do so with two flamenco blancas within this year.



pacowannab -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 9 2009 20:02:46)

Your guitars are always stunning Anders. I'm very interested in the impact the soundport has on the sound of a flamenco. Grisha's gutar has a soundport also. Could a soundport be cut into a pre-existing guitar by a competant luthier or do they need to be cut at the building stage?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 10 2009 0:25:16)

They should be prepared during production. You need to put a piece of 2mm thick wood where the soundport is going to be. The best (and easyest will be to glue it crossgrain to the sides.
If you dont do so, the sides will be to weak when you have cut the hole.

To Tom. I cut the hole before gluing the back on. This way its easyer to do and you can clean up better. But it can be done later. I have made a couple of Blancas which are prepared for a soundport. You "just" need to cut a hole and refinish the side.



HemeolaMan -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 10 2009 13:44:18)

Anders, its getting to the point where I am going to need to move in with you. lol.

I'll clean your house and do your laundry and walk the dog and cook your food for a few years if you teach me!!! lol



Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 10 2009 23:58:46)

Will you polish my shoes as well???



Exitao -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 11 2009 1:02:54)

I think you should ask if you're allowed to beat your apprentices with a stick. No point in taking on an apprentice if you can't.

Well, the beating and the chores getting done. I mean, those are the perks, right?


A question:

What's the depth of the body? Is it as shallow as a flamenco, or a little deeper?



HemeolaMan -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 11 2009 1:20:10)

well yes, actually I will. I'm killer good at getting a shine



rpguitar -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Jan. 13 2009 12:42:32)

I haven't been very active here recently, but this is my guitar - thanks to Anders - and it should be in New Jersey USA sometime next week. I'll share my impressions and possibly a recording eventually.

She looks beautiful though. [:D]

Since beginning to learn flamenco about one year ago, I realized that I was too interested in other styles to be hardcore. (Meanwhile, I do have a '72 Sobrinos de Esteso so I'm equipped there in any case.) But I enjoy Brazilian music, and my own eclectic classical-jazz compositions. And I like to improvise melodically to various jazz-based music.

I wanted a guitar that had the playability of a flamenco, because I was totally spoiled on that. But I wanted an instrument with more sustain, more harmonic complexity, and versatility - without going down the traditional classical path. I chose cypress B&S over rosewood to achieve a bit more emphasis on the high midrange frequencies of the guitar's sustain component. I was not looking for the boom of a Ramirez style. And the soundport came about because first of all, it's cool looking [;)], and second, to experiment with the sense of spaciousness that is an element of sustain.

Anders has been great to work with as many others have already found out. And now I await the safe passage of this piece across the mighty Atlantic. Gracias Andres!



Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 7 2009 1:24:20)

Just a question:

How many would consider having their next Flamenco guitar built with a soundport?



mrMagenta -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 7 2009 6:10:39)

I've never tried a guitar with a sound port, and I think that goes for a lot of people.
It's difficult to imagine the difference it makes without having a reference.

I would consider it, but would definitely like to be more educated before making up my mind. I wouldn't want it to come at a cost of sound charasteristics as projected to the listeners, but it seems it doesn't. If I would get a guitar with a sound port, I wouldn't be bothered by people asking why there's a hole in my guitar, or sneering and saying that it isn't traditional etc, I'm comfortable in being an early adopter.. I go for the things that make sense to me.



HemeolaMan -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 7 2009 8:14:54)

I actually am thinking about how to build it!

I dig the soundport idea. I sort of had one on a guitar with a preamp that i removed, sounded much nicer with the "sound port"



at_leo_87 -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 7 2009 10:12:02)

i heard that it affects volume from the front. something like it doesn't project as well.
that's not a problem for me as i dont play in concert halls or anything.
as long as it doesn't compromise tonal characteristics, i would probably get one.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 8 2009 7:58:53)

Thanks for the answers.

at_leo_87,
Who told you that a soundport makes a guitar project less? Its the first time I hear it. My own observation is that it doesnt do so, but that it gives the player a more spacious sound and a more lively guitar.
Robert Ruck is most probably the builder who has investigated the most in soundports and his observations are the same. Lots of players have come to the same conclusions. I know that Jason McGuire has a couple of guitars with ports and that he preferes them over non soundport guitars. Roger, who bought this guitar is saying the same
But, its not something that radically changes a guitar. Its something subtle, but if you plug the hole, play the guitar and the take out the plug again, you dont want to plug it again.
I will make a couple of flamencos with soundport and tell you what I think.



at_leo_87 -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 8 2009 8:13:30)

quote:


Who told you that a soundport makes a guitar project less?

it was on another forum. but it could have been a number of things that affected projection, not the sound port.

have you experimented with different sized holes?



kovachian -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 8 2009 10:23:46)

Anders, if you happen to have some corks available, you can plug the port for testing on the same guitar. Actually, you could make a guitar with numerous sound ports in many areas, then plug/unplug different ports for experimentation. As individual as luthier guitars are, even just two different guitars, one ported and one unported, might 'influence' the results too much sometimes. Or not, just a theory of mine. And my memory is a little foggy here, but it was either Ruck or someone else that said the soundhole should be a tiny bit smaller to compensate for the enhanced projection of the sound port.



at_leo_87 -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 8 2009 11:23:10)

quote:

Actually, you could make a guitar with numerous sound ports in many areas, then plug/unplug different ports for experimentation.


alan carruth tried this.





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srshea -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 9 2009 0:40:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Just a question:

How many would consider having their next Flamenco guitar built with a soundport?

Hey, Anders

I’d say no, mostly for cosmetic reasons. I find it to be just a little too aesthetically off-putting. The Spanish guitar is such perfectly and beautifully designed thing, so appealing to the eye, and those big ol’ holes are kinda freaky to me. Plus I’d be afraid that I’d drop bits of my sammich down the hole….

I’ve never actually played one myself , but I can understand the appeal of the change in sound/tone that sound ports give. If I were a professional studio player or something, then I would definitely be interested. But in the end, a sound port guitar would be something that I’d only be into after I already had three or four good guitars…..



Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 9 2009 1:04:51)

Adam, thanks for your answer. Its the standard one, the one I´ve heard the most. Flamenco guitarists are very conservative when it comes to design especially here in Spain. I like the look of a guitar with a port. it looks appealing to me. It looks advanced but maybe its just because its different. I dont like when there are to many or when they are very big.

The guitars I´ve made with port(s) I have plugged to try how they sounded without the port and the result was to take of the plug(s) and not put it in again.

On a classical I made the ports like Ruck 2 x 20mm. On this one its the same area, but in one hole, 28mm

As far as I remember, Ruck said in the GAL article that the size of the soundhole didn´t matter and that he doesnt change it. The guitars he build without ports, he reinforces so that they can easily be converted into guitars with ports



srshea -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 9 2009 1:11:38)

Have you ever made any comparative recordings of the plug-in/plug-out difference? That would definitely be interesting to hear.



kovachian -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 9 2009 16:05:20)

Guitarists in general sure are a conservative bunch, aren't we? Musicians of most instruments are conservative in general, it's just the way things are. At any rate I'd gladly consider a sound port guitar. I'm a sucker for forward-thinking within the confines of tradition, because it offers the best of the new and the old.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Mar. 10 2009 1:14:29)

Adam

I havent made a recording with the port on - of, but I will do soon. I´ve just started a soundport Blanca. It might even be 2. one with a cedar top and one with a spruce top. I dont think you´ll hear much difference in a recording. Jason McGuire says that the port improves recording because the guitar sounds more open.

Kovacian. Thats the spirit. And its typical USA. The soundport is an american thing and americans are more openminded to such things. Here in old world europe we can be very slow.



kozz -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Apr. 14 2009 13:17:22)

quote:

How many would consider having their next Flamenco guitar built with a soundport?


I am not shure, but that's only for the looks of it.....

When I see Grisha switching his ear above the soundport I suppose it must give some kind of sensation.
(2:30)

What's the actual bennifit?



Aadi -> RE: News from the workshop: soundport (Apr. 14 2009 14:00:01)

From what I've read of Ruck's and others' observations, guitars with soundport(s) are actually louder out the soundhole than ones without. I haven't had a chance to play a soundport guitar yet but I'll be cutting one in the blanca I'm building now. The main appeal for me is not the increased volume but the ability to properly hear the instrument as I play it. I grow weary of leaning over the front of the guitar, trying to hear myself. I'm convinced that Sabicas rested his cheek on the side of the upper bout to improve his hearing...

Technical question on cutting the hole: my plan is to reinforce the area with an offcut of the sides. For the actual cutting is a drill with hole saw or a coping saw best?



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