RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Full Version)

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runner -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 12 2009 9:42:24)

Many thanks to Ricardo, Anders and Jacinto for their replies. I also again appreciate that Ricardo, Jacinto, Ailsa and srshea took the time to talk about some of the actual selections on the Saura DVD. Some prefer to post in general, when asked about a specific set of examples; you guys actually addressed the request.

Ricardo, our discussion of the value of books and articles has nothing to do, In my mind, with my appreciation of your opinions on the Saura DVD, as discussed above. We do continue to disagree on the relationship between tientos and tangos. We continue to disagree on the value of books and articles; Anders takes an intermediate view; Jacinto blends both worlds, with first-hand flamenco experiences and a wide knowledge and appreciation of the literature.

Anders, what thoughts are in your head when you hear an operatic overture, or the Carmen Suite, or Wagner Without Words? Do you think "That's NOT Opera!" Or do you think,"That's the overture from Don Giovanni" or "That's the Liebestod without the singing."??

Back to another can of worms. What if we took a cante that is the quintessence of a palo seco, and that had no compás, then removed the singing entirely, brought out a dancer, and then grafted the compás of some other palo onto it, but kept the original name? What would we have then? Would it pass Florian's palo test? Is it still flamenco?

runner



Exitao -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 12 2009 10:14:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I think its good to study and read books. I have done so myself. Read many of the Spanish ooks about flamenco and I did a 1 year university course on the university of Granada about Flamenco and Mediterranean music.



Out of curiosity what would they have named that course (in Spanish is fine) and what discipline did it fall under?




runner:

The interesting thing about your opera example is that many people will appreciate the music without the vocal. There are people who simply think they don't like opera (but don't recognise it when they hear it without vocals, and may even enjoy it that way), there are people who simply can't appreciate the lyrics because they don't understand the language or context, but without that they can appreciate the music.

I would even suggest that Flamenco can be similar because of that. I have friends who might even enjoy Flamenco music, but when cante dominated tracks play, they get turned off. (e.g. the Martinete on chapter 6 of the DVD)



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 12 2009 13:44:00)

quote:


Out of curiosity what would they have named that course (in Spanish is fine) and what discipline did it fall under?


I think it was called Flamenco y la música mediterranea and it was under musicologia.



runner -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 12 2009 16:45:03)

Exitao, I agree entirely. Cante, for most non-aficionados, is a harsh, raucous, uncouth kind of singing. Even cante bonito can strike people unfamiliar with it as bizarre trilling and playing around with weird tones--possibly effeminate. This helps explain the constant erosion of the primacy of cante in flamenco as "flamenco" spreads out across a wider and wider audience (and, like pancake batter, gets thinner and thinner), and also as flamenco guitarists and dancers continue to dominate the perception of flamenco.

Your thoughts on people being turned off by the el Moneo/Agujetas martinete leads me to enquire again about my not-too-hypothetical example in the other direction--the Mario Maya "martinete". Which is the real martinete?

I also agree with your assessment of opera; I think it still can be considered opera and is so recognized even if there is no singing, but that people understand (not everybody!) that opera is basically about singing. It's my same view of (some) unsung flamenco.

runner



val -> [Deleted] (Jan. 13 2009 6:52:35)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 21:09:59



Estevan -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 13 2009 11:57:33)

[Jacinto: ]
quote:

which guards .... compas


[Val: ]
quote:

I've noticed you've used that term in other posts. I THINK I know what you mean, but please explain. Why the word "guards"?


Val,
It is the manner of writing of the Spanish-speakings; they have the Spanish idiom in their blood, and so they like to use the Spanish words, even until the English!

You dance, no? Then, fix yourself, when you dance, you must guard the compás in all your passes and heelings, for that your dance does not become disordered. For a dancer, as already you know, equal as for a player, to guard the compás is a very serious compromise.

Now, as much as the song, in flamenco there are, more than nothing, two kinds of song: the ones that guard the compás, and the ones that do not. The kind of song that guards the compás we call a stick; the song that does not guard a compás is a free song, (or if it is played on the guitar alone, a free touch).

I hope now that you have entered yourself that which "guard" wants to say.
[;)]



Ron.M -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 13 2009 12:16:18)

This effect was aptly demonstrated by an English football manager last year who spent a few months in Holland...

BEFORE..


ONE YEAR LATER..


"This I speak like ..eh..after..two nights..(you say nights?) in Amsterdam...eh..in
the cafes where you...eh...how you say..smoke?...these special cigarettes....no?"


cheers,

Ron

PS: On the other hand...I could listen to the interviewer's English accent all night!
OojaMama!...[:D]



Estevan -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 13 2009 12:22:00)

quote:

This effect was aptly demonstrated by English football manager last year who spent a few months in Holland...

Damn, he's good! Stieff van Klaren....

quote:

PS: On the other hand...I could listen to the interviewer's English accent all night!
OojaMama!...

Yeah, she's very good! [;)][sm=tongue.gif]



val -> [Deleted] (Jan. 13 2009 15:30:15)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 21:10:21



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 14 2009 9:11:36)

No, they look like Manzanilla olives stuffed with anchoa and read pepper.[:'(][:'(]



Exitao -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 15 2009 9:32:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

[Jacinto: ]
quote:

which guards .... compas


[Val: ]
quote:

I've noticed you've used that term in other posts. I THINK I know what you mean, but please explain. Why the word "guards"?


Val,
It is the manner of writing of the Spanish-speakings; they have the Spanish idiom in their blood, and so they like to use the Spanish words, even until the English!

You dance, no? Then, fix yourself, when you dance, you must guard the compás in all your passes and heelings, for that your dance does not become disordered. For a dancer, as already you know, equal as for a player, to guard the compás is a very serious compromise.

Now, as much as the song, in flamenco there are, more than nothing, two kinds of song: the ones that guard the compás, and the ones that do not. The kind of song that guards the compás we call a stick; the song that does not guard a compás is a free song, (or if it is played on the guitar alone, a free touch).

I hope now that you have entered yourself that which "guard" wants to say.
[;)]

Just to maybe help Estevan out, I notice some odd phrasing here which seems to be caused by a too literal translation.

fix yourself - probably came from fijate, it means more like... pay attention (to) or notice this. I'm sure he's not suggesting you grab some aeroplane glue.

passes - from pasos, steps

heelings - taconeos, hard steps (taps) performed on the heel.

compromise - in Spanish, compromiso, doesn't usually have the negative connotation that English does. It's more like something you promise or dedicate yourself to. I've even heard compromisado mean 'promised to' as in engaged.

Stick - palo, you should know this, but if you don't, palo as in style or flamenco subgenre, can literally translate to stick. I wonder if it comes from the idea of a 'metre stick' or something similar...

Free song - canto libre, just in case you used the Spanish term, but didn't know that's what it means in English.

Estevan:

If you're going to use translation software, feel free to post your Spanish too. Those of us who speak both can help you, and you help those of us who can use the practice, especially in more specialised topics.



Jacinto:

Please give us longer posts than just a quick line or two. It makes your posts cryptic/confusing.




Something else:

I'm not sure if this was the thread, but there was some discussion of the Fandangos de Huelva in Saura's Flamenco. IRC it was the only incidence of baile without toque or cante, which seems notable.

There was also some question if this was flamenco puro or too innovative. But I'd like to ask for some opinions, if we compare that kind of baile to, say, that of Sara Barras, would I be the only one who felt that this older one felt more traditional that what Barras is doing today?



Ailsa -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 15 2009 10:26:36)

quote:

Exitao: Estevan, If you're going to use translation software, feel free to post your Spanish too. Those of us who speak both can help you, and you help those of us who can use the practice, especially in more specialised topics.


I'm a bit confused - have I missed the point? I thought Estevan had written in Spanglish deliberately. I was thinking it showed how good his Spanish is, not that he had used an online translator. [&:][&:][&:]



Exitao -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 15 2009 12:33:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

quote:

Exitao: Estevan, If you're going to use translation software, feel free to post your Spanish too. Those of us who speak both can help you, and you help those of us who can use the practice, especially in more specialised topics.


I'm a bit confused - have I missed the point? I thought Estevan had written in Spanglish deliberately. I was thinking it showed how good his Spanish is, not that he had used an online translator. [&:][&:][&:]


I didn't think it was Spanglish, it seemed more like the English you'd get out of a translation app.

Honestly, I would have been little confused by his post if I didn't translate it into Spanish as I read it. No offence intended to Esteban.


Clavito would be the diminutive of either clave or or clavo, both of which have various meanings.

Jacinto has translated it, but for future reference when you want to look up a word with a suffix of -ito or -ita, just remove the -ito or -ita and add an o/e or an a respectively.

Diminutives make things smaller or cuter. Sometimes they can also use -illo/a and sometimes there will even be a 'c' placed before the diminutive if the word is too soft without it (can't remember the exact rule of how/why, but is similar to 'a' and 'an' or doubling up consonants when adding a suffix in English).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jacinto
De clavito y canela
Hueles tu a mi
El que no huele a clavito y canela
no sabe a distinguir

You (Thou) smell to me of cloves and cinnamon
He who has never smelled cloves and cinnamon
Doesn't know how to distinguish

[Here my Spanish fails me- the last line doesn't literally say " doesn't know how to distinguish between the two ["cloves" and "cinnamon""] So I have recently been thinking it is meant more generally like "doesn't have any discernment" ("Don't know nothing from nothing")


Of (sweet) cloves and cinnamon
You smell to me
He/One who doesn't smell of cloves and cinnamon
Doesn't know how to distinguish/discern

Your translation is just fine. I wouldn't change the line order though.

Here's a thought for you:
Are you sure sabe(r) in this case is to know as opposed to to taste?



Ailsa -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 15 2009 12:37:09)

quote:

when you want to look up a word with a suffix of -ito or -ita, just remove the -ito or -ita and add an o/e or an a respectively.


Thanks for that tip - that explains why the online translator didn't recognise it.



Estevan -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 15 2009 19:25:17)

quote:

I'm a bit confused - have I missed the point? I thought Estevan had written in Spanglish deliberately.

Thanks, most beautiful! [:)]I happy myself that you have understanded! [;)][:D][:D]



Estevan -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 15 2009 19:33:39)

quote:

Estevan:

If you're going to use translation software, feel free to post your Spanish too. Those of us who speak both can help you

Tibi grātiās agō, ō Exitao! Maximē rīsī....."diēm meum fēcīsti"![:D]



Exitao -> RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (Jan. 16 2009 8:34:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

quote:

Estevan:

If you're going to use translation software, feel free to post your Spanish too. Those of us who speak both can help you

Tibi grātiās agō, ō Exitao! Maximē rīsī....."diēm meum fēcīsti"![:D]

Apparently I didn't do anything helpful for you, as I misunderstood your intent No need to thank me. [&:] How could I have made your day?



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