RE: A 2008 challenge? (Full Version)

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guitarbuddha -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 12 2008 16:53:19)

I think that the challenge is a great idea. The fact that it is technically relentless and so very exposed is what makes it such an ideal piece for technical study. I am always amazed at how much more difficult Paco's music is to play compared to say Gerardo and the more modern players. I believe it is much more easy to get a good solid PORTABLE technique with these kind of studies. With a good knowledge of modern style of syncopation other styles should be much easier to play after working seriously on something like this.

But in the spirit of Florians post I (jokingly) propose that Ron learn the G minor presto from Bach's solo violin sonata at 260 bpm por buleria. Should be easy after all I have just finished fingering it myself from the violin score and it only took me 17 years on and off to come up with them and be able to play it.

So fairs fair Ron, why not give it a go ?

[8|]

D[8|]



Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 12 2008 23:11:34)

I would D,
But I've got enough on my plate already trying to learn even a single falseta from El Tempul...

cheers,

Ron



Pimientito -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 13 2008 7:19:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2
I was going i down, then a up , then i up. I have no idea how paco did it.


I tried that but its awkward to play a golpe with a on the first stroke and then immediately do an upstroke with a again on the second beat. I tried Hamias suggestion playin beat 2 with m but its easier (for me) with a. It must be tabbed correctly but.....sheesh thats hard to do fast!!!



Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 13 2008 7:40:28)

Pim,
Try i(golpe), i(up), a(down), i(golpe if you want ..or wait till the second round).

It's actually a standard, ordinary Flamenco rasgeado done very, very well IMO, but with the accented beat done on the i.

IMO this whole piece has probably been put together from Paco's practise exercises.

Each technique is a little example of how to do stuff perfectly while being musically very straightforward.

It has the impetus of an express locomotive however...[:-][:(][:D]

cheers,

Ron



Rain -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 13 2008 9:08:10)

I down(A Golpe) I up and A down etc....
Faucher's IAI is wrong.



guitarbuddha -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 13 2008 11:28:41)

i golpe i (up) ami i (up) ?



Rain -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 13 2008 13:00:13)

1- i down with golpe using a finger
2- i up
3- a down
4- i down
5- i up
6- a down
repeat

its iia, first triplet has a golpe done with the a finger as i goes down.then i goes up and a goes down. The dificulty is in bringing the a finger back after the golpe.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 13 2008 13:22:36)

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guitarbuddha -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 13 2008 15:59:27)

1. i down and golpe m and a together
2. i up
3. a down
4. m down and accent, m connects to a and waits
5. i down
6. i up and m and a together 'energise' for strong golpe.

Advantage, easier to stop rhythm bleeding and lots of time to set up a clear golpe. Disadvantage is making a clear accent with the m finger. Examples of this rasg Impetu but in rhythm 2 quavers then four semi's. The one which seems to be reaching concensus here (and may well be what paco played ) ii a is like the traditional 'galloping' compas for tangos and fandangos except in tangos the rhythm is one quaver plus two semi's. I would dismiss this because it is hard to place the golpe at high speeds because there is no time after the a downstroke ( although I would use m and a together to keep them blocked for a strong golpe, mine seems to offer a solution to this), I cant get this good on a table top (although I am thinking triplets at speed but I am not hearing them) and so would expect to find it to be an unsustainable technique in terms of practice requirements versus frequency of use.


Another option for a six note repeating figure would be P(with golpe like alzapua ) then P up then ami down and finally I up, this feels nice but I haven't worked with it enough to see if I can get a good sound at speed.


I will work on all four.

D.



Pimientito -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 14 2008 1:34:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

1. i down and golpe m and a together
2. i up
3. a down
4. m down and accent, m connects to a and waits
5. i down
6. i up and m and a together 'energise' for strong golpe.



HEY! THANKS! That makes a lot of sense. Your hand is already opening after third beat...use m for the first beat of the next triplet ( if you have enough independant control to accent it)and sets up nicely for the next golpe....but still a bit of a pig to not use a for the next round of triplets...more practice!

I think those who take on this Paco challenge are going to pick up quite a few tricks along the way!



Ricardo -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 14 2008 14:52:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

1. i down and golpe m and a together
2. i up
3. a down
4. m down and accent, m connects to a and waits
5. i down
6. i up and m and a together 'energise' for strong golpe.



HEY! THANKS! That makes a lot of sense. Your hand is already opening after third beat...use m for the first beat of the next triplet ( if you have enough independant control to accent it)and sets up nicely for the next golpe....but still a bit of a pig to not use a for the next round of triplets...more practice!

I think those who take on this Paco challenge are going to pick up quite a few tricks along the way!


Keep in mind the pattern is not constant with paco's version. 12,2,4, not 6. Then 7, 10. Then 1, but 4 he misses. I had an idea to do:
1. i(golpe with a)
2. i up
3. m down
4. i down
5. i up
6. m down.
Problem is, m is darker sounding when going fast because it hits more the middle strings. a finger hits the trebles more, and paco gets a very bright sound. pretty sure at this point it is like it says, iia, iia,...

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 15 2008 7:38:58)

Well, I tried to work out some of the falsetas this weekend.
(Thanks to Bash sending me the mp3, since I only have the original and somewhat scratchy vinyl LP)
Wow!
What can I say!
I've never looked at this piece in such detail before.
The man is a genius!

There is not a superfluous note in the entire piece.[:-]

The fingerings and ideas are just astonishing.

PdL must be the Bach of Flamenco!


cheers,

Ron



Florian -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 15 2008 14:31:02)

yeah [:D] i often wonder whats going trough the composers head when they are composing, how they work it , with this one i bet he got sick of everybody stealing his music and copying him by this time so he composed this one [:)] "Here, steal this [8D]"



Pimientito -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 15 2008 22:19:04)

quote:



The man is a genius!

There is not a superfluous note in the entire piece.[:-]

The fingerings and ideas are just astonishing.

PdL must be the Bach of Flamenco!



Dont take this the wrong way but it occured to me that you may not have looked at it that closely when you first posted that by todays standards it probably was not that difficult[:D] - otherwise you are an extremely talented player!

And its not just this particular piece.....nearly all of Pacos early stuff is still very hard to pull off no matter who you are. To get the eveness of tone, power and cleanness of his playing requires a massive amount of work and talent. Even age 15, he still had a technique most of us would envy. You have thrown down a mighty gauntlet...and we look forward to your upload!

Thanks for checkin out the rasgeo ricardo..i couldnt get Errols together...it kind of gets messy at speed and its just easier in the end to stick with iia (although thats it for me this year for trying out rasgeo combinations)



Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 15 2008 23:20:00)

quote:

Dont take this the wrong way but it occured to me that you may not have looked at it that closely when you first posted that by todays standards it probably was not that difficult


Hi Pimientito,
Well.. it was kinda tongue-in-cheek. [8D]
What I was meaning is that it was fairly straightforward and could probably be worked out even by ear unlike some of the modern stuff with weird tunings and complicated fingerings, syncopation etc.
Also the techniques don't jump around a lot within the actual falsetas and the compás is very clear.

I knew it was technically very challenging, but I still believe some players here could make a pretty good attempt at the whole thing and other players manage bits of it.
I think EVERYBODY would benefit from at least trying out some of the falsetas, for as GB says, the techniques used are portable.

As for myself....Jeez...I can't even play SLOW picado very well! [:D]

cheers,

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 18 2008 9:29:58)

OK Ron, so far this is what I got. Only 10 more months to work out the obvious bugs....



[8D]



guitarbuddha -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 18 2008 9:37:11)

Great[:)]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 18 2008 9:41:10)

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srshea -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 18 2008 9:57:04)

Egads! You like to come out and intimidate the competition early, don't you?



JBASHORUN -> [Deleted] (Jan. 18 2008 10:05:05)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 11 2011 17:15:46



Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 18 2008 21:27:09)

Holy Sh*t!... #*@%$!!!

I'm speechless!

Great picado tone and I love the explosive rasgueado sound you get.

Thanks for showing that as it will be a great help to members trying to learn it.

You gotta admit, it's a GREAT tune!

To be honest, I didn't really care about the minor fluffs etc...it was really exciting to watch and listen to and I got the feeling you enjoyed playing it too!

cheers,

Ron



koella -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 18 2008 22:09:20)

Wow !
Very inspiring Ricardo.



flamencoguru -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 18 2008 23:24:46)

Awesome Richard!

Thanks. That was great! Don't worry about the bugs. I don't think they're going to give you many problems at all. I like the foot tapping too [:D]

Un saludo, Errol



Ricardo -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 19 2008 4:19:17)

Thanks guys. It is really not ready yet for me. It is hard to keep relaxed and not rush certain parts w/out a metronome. You can see I just keep the foot going and that is how I learned it, just adding notes between foot taps and keep the beat going, no 12 counting or anything. I wish I could say now I know it that it is easier than I thought it would be, but it has some real tricky spots. No way I can run through perfectly, and after trying several times I start to burn out at high speed.

I point out some of the real trouble spots for me at the end of the vid. That rasgueado I still can't do fast with the golpes. The synchopated falseta is really tough with the string crossing picados and off beat melody. To me that right there is harder than most modern synchopated stuff from Tomatito or whoever. Then there are the tremolo/arp/ picado things that Gerardo has mastered. Obviously Paco was doing it way before him. Really tough for me to do clean. Then the Aminor picado at the end, really tough to co-oridinate the bass notes into it, I miss a few here or there or can't time them perfect to the melody when going fast.

And there is the speed. I tried to play to the recording, but it is crazy. The tuning is sharp too, so I suspect it is sped up a hair. If you guys can slow down with Quicktime or whatever, so the guitar is in standard pitch capo 3, I think THAT is the real speed he plays at. Still really fast, but I don't think anyone should have to play at the actual speed Paco is doing.

So I will keep at it until it gets more natural and I can have the stamina to get through a few times, but it will take a while. In the meantime folks don't be shy to upload any bits of it you guys have down already, or if you need help working out certain spots.

Ricardo



duende -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 19 2008 5:52:16)

olé Ricardo! i dont have it up to that tempo yet. i would be happy with that tempo.


I was trying to make a little vid yesterday but i didn´t nail the parts good enough,
i know about 50% of the piece now but not at a very fast tempo.

I try to learn it with the 1 2 4 5 7 8 10 11 foot. man thats hard sometimes[:D]

let´s see if i can get some practice time i might upload a little of it on sunday or monday.



TANúñez -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 19 2008 6:59:08)

Damn! Ricardo. I can't even comment. Eres un Monstruo!



Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 19 2008 8:18:26)

Thanks again Ricardo for that Bravura upload!

This is what the challenge is about IMO.
It's not about doing your own thing etc.
It's about having fun and challenging yourself to see how you can cope with a 40 year old classic by The Master.
Ricardo's upload was thrilling, in respect of the way that I knew the tune and knew what was going to happen next and cringed to see how he was gonna cope and amazed and delighted when he did it.
This is why I urge everybody to at least work their way through a couple of falsetas, even at snail's pace.
THEN it gives you a total appreciation and thrill of seeing someone overcome the technical difficulties involved..... it and really does "enhance the listening experience." (that's Bill Gates Geek Speak BTW..but you know what I mean..[:D])
As regards to fluffs here and there...this even makes it sound BETTER IMO.
It makes you consider that this is a REAL guy doing this in REAL time and not just a frozen-in-time studio version to play on your stereo or in your car.

I love "live" guitar.
No accompaniment, no cajon, nowhere to hide!

This is what I loved about Flamencoguru's upload of "Impetu".
You just knew the guy thought..."I wonder if I could do this?"...Nah!...Well let's try just this falseta...Hmmm... OK, let's try the next bit...."

This is what challenging yourself is all about!

Not by being all coy and arty and playing your own "safe" compositions that "fit" your hand and technique.

Makes the Men stand out from the boys IMO!
Hell...it even makes the Women stand out from the boys! [:D]

Olé Ricardo!

However don't let this put anyone off...
Ricardo is a Professional player with many years experience and HARD WORK.

Challenge YOURSELF and make a point this year of uploading EVEN JUST ONE falseta before December just to see if you can do it.

Sure, you may not win the Cup, but you'll gain the respect of us all!

cheers,

Ron



koella -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 19 2008 8:57:04)

You got a little carried away here Ron. But that's allright.[:D]
I know exactly what you mean.
Ricardo has perfect technique, but, [ like you ] I love the liveliness of some cracks and noise he has here and there. It makes the whole thing come alive. Thank God we don't have to aim for the sterile style of the classicals.

Imagine some classical trained singer, waking up one morning having the voice of an average flamenco singer. He would jump off the highest building. [:D]

In flamenco it's the soul that counts. IMO

Proost.

koella



Rain -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 19 2008 9:30:15)

Ole Ricardo!!![:D]

Your right hand ROCKS.



Mark2 -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 19 2008 9:39:16)

DAMM Ricardo! That was outstanding and inspirational!!! Completely enjoyable and impressive! Thanks for showing all of us that it could be done.



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