RE: A 2008 challenge? (Full Version)

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Pimientito -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 7 2008 22:29:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
hey wait a minute....I better not give anything away until after the challenge![;)][:D]


..so you are going to take it on then![:)]

Thanks for your comment on the difficulty. I have found the vast majority of people dont realise just how hard Pacos material is until they try to perform it themselves. All that early stuff is VERY VERY difficult. Try getting the Guajira totally clean!

I gotta admit, I am a bit nervous about the level of competition....I mean some of you guys are professionals. There are some very competant players here....maybe there should be an amature award!. Anyway, 12 months is lots of time so lets see if I can make a half decent attempt at it.



John O. -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 7 2008 22:49:32)

I'm in! As far as the competition level goes - we know who the best are already, then there's recording equipment, quality of the instrument etc. I'm not in it to win it, it'll be fun though. Hopefully I'll find a falseta on the album that I've been working at since I began...



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 8 2008 3:34:09)

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Pimientito -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 8 2008 5:10:37)

quote:


How about if we are allowed to replace any hard parts with other Bulerias falsetas from Paco (Almoraima, Cepa, etc.).


Bad idea - The problem is that then we will have (hopefully at least) 20 different pieces uploaded and it will be difficult to judge. Its gonna be your Almoraima verses Ricardos Tempul verses Rons Pañuelo (you never know !) It is gonna be really confusing. Probably better to stick to the piece, simplify the bits that are too hard, omit or shorten the falsetas that you really cant do and that way make a fair comparison. Besides I dont think Cepa Andaluza is generally any easier anyway.

Foot tapping on 1,2..4,5..7,8..10,11?...during whole piece? Gets instant disqualification for being a smart@rse showoff [:D]



Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 8 2008 8:13:56)

I agree with Pimienito,

I mean we can carry this forward so much that you could add in some Juan Martin falsetas here and there...[:D]

Nope...it's got to follow the same structure as Tempul to qualify.

Simplify things by all means...
I mean there are lots of ways of implying that rasgueado at the start without really doing it the way Paco does.
Sure...it's not Paco...
But neither are you getting $100,000 per concert!

If you go to a pie eating contest, you can't say.."Well...is it OK if I substitute the pies for pizza slices or burgers..?" (or Anchovies!)[:D]

Stick to the script as much as possible and just hack your way through it the best you can.
That's where the challenge is!

No good saying "I'm quitting smoking, I'm just buying this pack of cigs to help me through it!"...[:D][:D]

cheers,

Ron



Estevan -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 8 2008 9:54:32)

quote:

I mean we can carry this forward so much that you could add in some Juan Martin falsetas here and there...

Nope...

Damn...I'm out then! [:D]

quote:

No good saying "I'm quitting smoking, I'm just buying this pack of cigs to help me through it!"...

Aw c'mon...it's just this one pack, and they're not that strong...[;)][:D][:D]



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Mark2 -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 8 2008 10:11:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

[
quote:

What's your best guess on the moves for this passage?

Well I am going i with a golpe then i up then....[&:]....hey wait a minute....I better not give anything away until after the challenge![;)][:D]



HAHA! fair enough! I'm already working on it using Faucher's move, but haven't built up nearly enough speed to determine if it's gonna come out right.

Great idea Ron. I don't know how far I'll get with this technical monster even in a year, but it will be fun to see how far I can go as well as see how well other players can do. If anyone can nail that rasquedo, I'm sure they will feel it was worth whatever time and effort it required.



Pimientito -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 5:47:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2
If anyone can nail that rasquedo.....


Ok I've gone through the Tab again....let me just get this right because i have always done a normal rasgeao over that bit.
He tabs that Paco plays downstroke with first finger (with golpe presumably with the a on the golpe plate) then an up stroke with i then the third beat is a down stroke with a. The next triplet does not have a golpe. So its golpe, no golpe.. golpe, no golpe...golpe, no golpe. Ok so far? Is that correct? That is what Paco does yes?

Ok now Ricardo indicated something about using the m finger as well. Is that theoretical or habe you seen him do that? Also (and this may be a daft question), is it possible that the golpe is done with the thumb on the golpe plate above the 6th string. (Gerardo does something similar in his teaching DVD) Is there a way of incorporating that golpe in rasgeao??



Doitsujin -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 7:17:23)

Why makin a challange about copying someones compositions? We should make a challange to do our own composition till december and play it very good.

Im not a big fan of pacos compositions. They are nice, but everybody knows them. And if you play one, everybody starts to compare with paco. And that is not the goal we should have a smusicians. We are no cassette recorders like the classic guitarrists.
If you want to be a musician, you have to go your own way. You have to do your own compositions. So,.. I copy just to get more knowledge about possibillities for different palos in different harmonies. Than I can take the things together and make my own stuff more easy. But Im not interested in trying to copy a record most closely 1:1.

So,.. let us work out our own things.



Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 8:13:09)

quote:

The next triplet does not have a golpe. So its golpe, no golpe.. golpe, no golpe...golpe, no golpe. Ok so far? Is that correct? That is what Paco does yes?


This is what I feel too, Pimientito.
I don't mess with tabs ([:D]), I just use my ear... but it seems to me it's done in 6 strokes per golpe.

The important part IMO is that the sequence begins with i /golpe, whereas it is more instinctive to start with a or m, which won't work in this case.

Actually I was trying to work it out today...and it suddenly gave me an insight into a Tomatito thing I heard in the past but couldn't work out before.

This is the beauty of trying to work out stuff you are not familiar with IMO.

cheers,

Ron

PS: Doit....I know what you are saying...but by looking closely at what the masters are doing gives us an insight into stuff and learn....which is great for all of us who can't go and live in Andalucia.



guitarbuddha -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 8:14:52)

Hi Doit. I agree with about studying other peoples musical structures to inspire and inform us. But why not the same with their approach to interpretation and performance ? It can only make us stronger and as long as we have the perspective to work in other ways to find our own voice and perspective then all to the good.

PS well done on the random dig at classical guitarists, so refreshing and original.[8|]

D.



Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 8:20:42)

quote:

If you want to be a musician, you have to go your own way. You have to do your own compositions


Exactly....Juan Martin has been saying this for years!

cheers,

Ron



Mark2 -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 9:54:09)

I was going i down, then a up , then i up. I have no idea how paco did it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito


Ok I've gone through the Tab again....let me just get this right because i have always done a normal rasgeao over that bit.
He tabs that Paco plays downstroke with first finger (with golpe presumably with the a on the golpe plate) then an up stroke with i then the third beat is a down stroke with a. The next triplet does not have a golpe. So its golpe, no golpe.. golpe, no golpe...golpe, no golpe. Ok so far? Is that correct? That is what Paco does yes?

Ok now Ricardo indicated something about using the m finger as well. Is that theoretical or habe you seen him do that? Also (and this may be a daft question), is it possible that the golpe is done with the thumb on the golpe plate above the 6th string. (Gerardo does something similar in his teaching DVD) Is there a way of incorporating that golpe in rasgeao??



koella -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 9:56:28)

Jeez it feels so good to be a lurker.[:D]



Arash -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 10:40:17)

@Doit and Ron

Besides, it is soooo difficult to make own compositions which are really new. I mean , sometimes i attempt to make some new falsetas for me and suddenly i realize that i have already heard almost the same thing in some recording somewhere from someone.

One is unconsciously so influenced by the 1000s of falsetas you have heard in all the recordings, that you must really be a genious to compose nice and REALLY new things in flamenco solo guitar.

Thats also why i really admire foromembers who post own nice new falsetas or complete pieces.

I think i will keep copying the maestros for the next 10 years....and after that, lets see what happens...



hamia -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 10:59:10)

What about i down with golpe using a finger, then m up followed by i up. Would this sound similar to Paco?



Pimientito -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 9 2008 12:31:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia
What about i down with golpe using a finger, then m up followed by i up. Would this sound similar to Paco?


I guess that yes...it would...if you get it to sound similar...and you get the golpes in! If any technique works really well for you, then use it. I am not even sure if Fauchers tab is what Paco actually does ...as no-one has actually answered that yet.

Doit...I see what you are saying...and yes, it is important to work out material for yourself BUT.... what Ron is proposing is something different! This is not a composition competition. Its a classic standard that everyone can learn and compare - just as Gerardo did with Impetu or Paco Peña and Miguel Orchando did with the old masters

quote:

If you want to be a musician, you have to go your own way. You have to do your own compositions.


I used to agree with this opinion but now i am not so sure.....I truly believe there are those who are composers and those who are musicians. I think that a composer is going to invent more interesting music than a non composer....even if they are a technically gifted musician. There are so many truly amazing guitarists who make second rate or musically unintersting records. Having seen a couple of great composers, I realise that I am just a musician...I can play their compositions but can not write that kind of material for myself...it doesnt upset me...i love playing their music. I think it is important to have people in the world who carry the compositions of the great composers....that is why people copy Paco and Vicente etc. in the first place.

If you can write your own beautiful compositions then congratulations...please post them for us all to listen to and learn from...meanwhile i am going to try to get my fingers round the work of an old master for the purpose of this challenge!



mark indigo -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 10 2008 9:09:26)

quote:

Foot tapping on 1,2..4,5..7,8..10,11?...during whole piece? Gets instant disqualification for being a smart@rse showoff


it's not as hard as it first seems.... when i realised players were doing that i couldn't do it and thought it was impossible, but then i got a mundobeat programmable metronome (i know you can now do it on pc, but i didn't have one then...) and programmed it to do 1,2 4,5 7,8 10,11, just to play along with. I started to hear falsetas, rasgeos, etc., against that pulse, and to hang the music on that rhythmic frame, and after a while i really got it into my head and just started to tap my foot along with it almost by accident...

... so i can do the foot tapping and playing, but that doesn't mean the playing is any good!

actually i don't think paco does that all the way through anyway, he switches to every other beat (12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10) towards the climax of a falseta, often when it changes rhythmically...

mark



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 10 2008 9:18:09)

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mark indigo -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 10 2008 9:31:26)

he sure does do it all the way thru on this one!



Doitsujin -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 11 2008 7:54:53)

quote:

PS well done on the random dig at classical guitarists, so refreshing and original.


[;)]

[:D]

Yes I also thin its ok to copy if one do his own interpretation. Just 1:1 copying is lame... I mean.. if one could copy paco 1:1 , he could also do easyly his own things very good. So why wasting talent? Nobody wanna hear a copy of Paco or Sabicas bacause the original will allways stay the best. Why listening to immitations? Nobody wants a fake-Rolex, too. Fakes are nice sometimes,.. but.. oookkk... I could also have fun playing with faketits.. Its sexy anyway! HA! (But dont tell anybody please..[;)])



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 11 2008 8:19:38)

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Ron.M -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 11 2008 21:08:46)

quote:

Nobody wants a fake-Rolex


Yeah Doit,
But if you were a watchmaker, you would probably be interested in taking a Rolex apart and looking at everything under the microscope to learn from some of their advanced techniques that you could employ in your own designs.

Reverse Engineering of stuff is carried out commonly for this purpose.

Look at the Formula One scandals for instance.

cheers,

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 12 2008 2:01:41)

quote:

Nobody wanna hear a copy of Paco or Sabicas bacause the original will always stay the best. Why listening to immitations?


Actually, both guys ripped off Ramon Montoya big time. Little things here and there creep in of your own as you "steal" from the old maestros. That is the way flamenco is learned. No one is saying you can't stick YOUR own falsetas into Paco's orginal piece. Go right ahead. But for sure to copy the old maestros is very much the flamenco way. Think about noobs that "compose" their own "flamenco". Sure it is creative, but why is it not the "real" thing? You have to have a base and the best way is to copy the masters and from there find your own way, little by little. I doubt anyone here is going to be the next creator a la R. Montoya, N. Ricardo, Sabicas, Paco, Vicente, etc, by Dec. 08!

So no more whining, just start learning the darn song!

Ricardo



Florian -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 12 2008 2:30:30)

quote:

I doubt anyone here is going to be the next creator a la R. Montoya, N. Ricardo, Sabicas, Paco, Vicente


How dare you [:D] i had big plans for my compositions this year [:D]jk.



I am torn in this challenge, on the one hand id love to take part and challenge myself (even found the tab and been practicing the first few lines) on the other hand with all respect to the maestro , it will not be smart of me, its no ezy task, which is fine, its sopossed to be a challenge.

As i couldnt use it as much and as much as i respect him and love what he does when he does it ,this buleria its not my cup of tea and if i learn it would be for the wrong reasons and i will not use it ever besides in this challenge.

and you cant do this half way, u have to invest alot of time in it if you were to do it propelly, time i cant afford.

I have so many things on my own list of things i like i would like to learn this year eg. ramon jimenez buleria falsetas, plus i need alot of new intros and falsetas for dances etc.

on the one hand learning this would be great for my technique but i can learn stuff i can acctualy use and like with dancers and still work my technique at the same time.

its too much to sacrifice for the sake of a fun challenge, this is not the kind of solo you learn over night and to do propelly will take ALOT of invested time ich is fine but it would have to be something that i 100% love.


ofcourse in saying all this i might still join , i dont know very undecided, trying to use my limited time effectivly and while practicing learning stuff i like playing and can acctualy use with dancers.

it is a greate idea and good luck to all you guys, and who knows a year is a long time, might change my mind, but as much as i would love to be part of it, i just dont think i can afford the time on something i am not 100% crazy about. no disrespect, its greate when he does it and i respect that, but its not something i identifie with or wanna play, the rithm was played very differently in those days, wasent as well rounded as it is now Imo, dosent say buleria as much to me as the rithm this days does. IMO

Dont get me wrong, Paco is the greatest and everything he does is Gold when he does it, but i wont do it just because its hard to do to proove something, i would if i had the time i used to have but since my time is so limited this days i try to get 100% out of it with stuff i identifie with and can also use.

hope noone finds what i say disrepectfull and hope it makes sence to you.

there are many Paco bulerias i like and would have loved to learn, but for my own taste this isnt one of them, to try to play it for other people and convince them i would feel like a fake because i dont 100% love it or can identifie with it so i would never even attempt to.

every single thing i play, i play cause I simply love.

but i totaly respect and applaud those of you who do have the time to invest in it, and if you love it and identifie with it by all means, do it, just make sure its for the right reasons.



Ricardo -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 12 2008 4:00:55)

quote:

I have so many things on my own list of things i like i would like to learn this year eg. ramon jimenez buleria falsetas, plus i need alot of new intros and falsetas for dances etc.


I understand totally. But this is about learning period. It won't "hurt" you as bad as you think. The thing that is not fair, is that Ron picked a tune some of us like and some don't. Here is my thing. I like both old stuff and new, and think there is no need to NOT study stuff from anyone. Sure there is stuff I dont' go near, but I probably should you know?

I propose that if you just take the time to learn a couple falsetas from this, how about Ron has to learn a bit of Ramon Jimenez, no matter if he likes it or not. And me too. I am willing to learn anything you throw at me so long as you meet me half way too. In the end, we all can gain an understanding and appreciation for something we might not have otherwise.

Ricardo



duende -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 12 2008 4:06:44)

i have gotten thru the intro at least[:D].. i think its liberating to study someone elses music. it frees me cause I dont have to be creative, the music is already there. witch relaxes me a lot and its fun!
For every piece you study something sticks, and comes out in your playing subconsiously.



Florian -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 12 2008 7:26:33)

quote:

I propose that if you just take the time to learn a couple falsetas from this, how about Ron has to learn a bit of Ramon Jimenez, no matter if he likes it or not. And me too. I am willing to learn anything you throw at me so long as you meet me half way too. In the end, we all can gain an understanding and appreciation for something we might not have otherwise.

Ricardo


I am up for that [:D]

quote:

The thing that is not fair, is that Ron picked a tune some of us like and some don't.


Acctualy i dont think its that unfair or if it is i wasent thinking that way, u know.. his good idea, fair enough he can pick whatever, its true once it becomes a democratic choice it would turn into chaos and 6 months later we would still be voting on what solo to learn, and nothing would ever get done.
When you have a good idea around here, you kind of have to take charge and have the details worked out before you even present it otherwise once opened for discussion u can kiss the idea good bye, i think we are all learning that [:D].

quote:

Here is my thing. I like both old stuff and new, and think there is no need to NOT study stuff from anyone. Sure there is stuff I dont' go near, but I probably should you know?


I dont think it will hurt me to learn it, i am not making a point of "NOT" learning it but i also dont think it will be time wisely spent in my situation.

I can learn one solo i will probably never use and spend 3 , 4, 5,6, 7 months (however long, not sure ) it will take or i can learn about 6 falsetas, intros , rithm cycles that I could acctualy use.

if i had the luxury of playing 12 hours a day like i used to before i started this the job, i would do it and look at it as an exercise, fun challenge, and still have time to focus on stuff i wanna focus on but since i am so tired after work and have considerable less time with the guitar, i have to just spend it productive, meaning, learn and practice stuff that does both, work my technique and work towards playing the kind of music i wanna be playin.

Not snobing Paco's stuff by any means, i just like what i like.


I mean if this wasent so difficult and demanded so much attention and dedication to the challenge i would be a sport, but its too difficult and time consuming for something that i am not 100 % into.

in saying that, 2 falsetas i could try because it would just be a trip to see Ron play Ramon and getting to pick 2 falsetas for you, 2 falsetas is a better medium for me and none of us have to put our own learning projects on hold for too long.



Florian -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 12 2008 8:10:12)

For future Challenges mibe 2009 we can have em more rounded and with different sections to cover more aspects eg.

each player must :

- play 2 traditional falsetas as recorded (with traditional rithm)
- play 2 original falsetas
- play 2 modern falsetas as recorded (with more modern rithm)

i think this kind of criteria is more in the midlle and covers everyone and also forces everyone to be more aware and rounded outside theyr own preferences which is always a good thing, but it has to work both ways.

however, i do understand why Ron picked the solo himself,.. to avoid chaos.

SO weather i take part or not i fully support it and am interested in the results, a good idea is a good idea.



Doitsujin -> RE: A 2008 challenge? (Jan. 12 2008 8:38:35)

okokok... lets start learning the piece.. I jst started with the introduction.[:-]



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