Volume and lowering the action (Full Version)

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bahen -> Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 15:29:00)

Hi everyone,

I've been told more than once that I need to lower the action on my blanca. Lowering the action involves decreasing the height of the piece at the bridge, correct? I can go about doing this by moving the bridge piece across fine sandpaper laid on a flat surface, correct? I want to do this myself, but I'd like someone to tell me of things I should be aware of before I start.

My understanding is that lowering the action makes playing at the higher frets easier, correct?. Also what does lower action do for volume? Is there a decrease at all, or is the difference inaudible for the most part.

cheers,
b.h.




guitarbuddha -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 16:09:41)

I'm interested in this too. Basically I play a classical guitar and had the action set real high to get as much did as possible with the right hand.

I have been looking around at flamenco guitars and find the low action quite off putting. My nails hit the rosette when I dig in. With rest stroke the strings snap off the fingerboard.

There may be something I am missing here but I am not sure how I can get the kind of volume I like without actually displacing the strings, there just doesn't seem enough room for them to move.

All answers welcome,

D.




papi_rf -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 17:33:40)

b.h.,
Here's a sight that I reviewed when adjusting the action on my guitar.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/OwnerManual/mancguitar.html

Be sure to read about the nut and saddle adjustments. Before sanding, I take a pencil (or marker) and rub the bottom edge of the nut or saddle against the lead. This leaves a thin black mark around the bottom, and gives a reference point to know how much has been sanded away.

I have done this on 2 guitars - my beater, then my flamenco guitar. I checked and adjusted the nut first. Then I check the action at the 12th fret, and adjust the saddle. Lowering the action makes it easier to play. I do not think it has an effect on volume; the construction, dimensions, and scale length probably have more to do with that.




jshelton5040 -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 19:14:17)

Lowering the action reduces volume. There's no way around it. Another risk with lowering action particularly on classics is intonation problems. We compensate classic guitars with the assumption that the 6th string height at the 12th fret is 4mm, if this were lowered to say 2mm the guitar would not play in tune.




koella -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 19:22:34)

I would like to add that especially the richness of the sound ( harmonics ) decreases.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 19:35:56)

quote:

I would like to add that especially the richness of the sound ( harmonics ) decreases.


Now lets be flamenco guys. A lot of flamenco players actually want the amount of harmonics to decrease. A lot of harmonics is not what you want when beating the beast at a fiesta. Some flamenco guitars have special dance setup, which means very low setup. This in order to decrease harmonics and increase buzzing. This means a guitar that is very percussive and cuts through taconeaos, palmas etc.

Volume is a weird thing. If you play a lot of solo stuff, this kind of "classical" volume might be what you want. But its not specially flamenco. The guitar with this kind of volume is not the best for playing for dance or at fiestas. It rumbles and sings to much when you give full speed (toda hostia)

Guitarbuddha:
You can have someone make you a flamenco guitar with a 10mm stringheight at the bridge. Its a matter of neck angle.




guitarbuddha -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 20:05:37)

Does anyone know where I could try a flamenco guitar with a 'tough' setup ? I cant really afford more than one guitar (it will be a struggle to get even one) and would really like to actually try a guitar that I am happy with before commisioning another with a similar feel.

I have been working on my technique for a long time and wouldn't like to practice on an instrument that forces me to surrender too much of it. If I could own a selection of guitars for different purposes that would be a different matter and I would love to have a bone dry growling flamenco for accompaniment only, but that is not remotely likely.

In spite of my gung-ho right hand approach my left hand could probably do with a little bit of a break.

Thanks for all replies.

D.




n85ae -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 20:22:38)

Hey David -

Go buy yourself a cheap Yamaha so you can play flamenco.... :)

Regards,
Jeff




RobJe -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 20:30:10)

I am interested in what you say Anders. Its good to think that some guitarists still care about the sound, when amplification and FX seem commonplace in even the smallest venue. At its best this can give a kind of edgy flamenco sound from any guitar and at worst, a plummy sound with excessive base. Even up to the 1960s some companies played unamplified in huge venues. Guitars used by professionals in those days - a lot of them old style Condes (Sobrinos de Esteso) had the qualities you describe. Everyone should have a guitar like this for sheer playing pleasure and parties, even if they have a modern smooth Conde for big venues. Reading what you say about the qualities you try and achieve in your guitars, it sounds as if they have something of this old world quality - perhaps with some modern attribues as well? In my expereince raising or lowering the action on a guitar does create some of the differences described, but not as much as the differences between individual guitars.
The best advice I could give to anyone unsure about which guitar to buy is to stick to guitarreros who (1) are not diverted by making mainly classical guitars (2) have the opportunity to talk to a lot of flamenco guitarists (3) have a brain. It would be useful if they could play a bit as well!
Rob




Ron.M -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 21:44:01)

quote:

I have been looking around at flamenco guitars and find the low action quite off putting. My nails hit the rosette when I dig in. With rest stroke the strings snap off the fingerboard.


David,
I think you've answered your own question here.
Obviously PdL and Tomatito don't have this problem on a low action Flamenco guitar, yet I'm sure you would rate them as players.

So it's down to technique. Yeah?

IMO a Flamenco technique is very different to a Classical one.

I've often said to Classical players to be careful in getting too much involved in Flamenco as it could ruin what you have already built up in the Classical field.

Quite different approaches IMO.

cheers,

Ron




koella -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 22:03:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
I've often said to Classical players to be careful in getting too much involved in Flamenco as it could ruin what you have already built up in the Classical field.

Ron


That's what happens to my playing since three years, and I LOVE IT. [:D]




guitarbuddha -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 14 2007 22:16:54)

Hi Ron. I remember about ten years ago in Dundee playing Jasper Lockerfeers guitar and finding that it responded very well to the technique I had then (I just played through some classical rep and the half assed understanding I had form Toques Flamenco). Nice guy Jasper, and a lot more musically sensitive than some of his less thoughful companions. I don't know make it was but it was real loud and real responsive and real easy to play.

But it didn't buzz when I played hard and I didn't need to avoid the Rosette.

Sure I've got a lot more technique now but rather a large portion of it's development has been fuelled by my continuing interest in flamenco. I don't mind cultivating a more flamenco approach when playing flamenco music. Just like I prefer to use a pick for electric.

It seems reasonable to me to want a guitar that will respond to all of the technique I can muster.

Maybe I have been trying guitars with a rather extreme setup designed to please the fingers more than the ear ?

D.




a_arnold -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 0:22:34)

quote:

Does anyone know where I could try a flamenco guitar with a 'tough' setup ?


Guitarbuddha:
Many Ramirez flamencos from the 60's and 70's were set up with high action. Sabicas' guitar was an example. If that's what you mean by tough.




HemeolaMan -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 3:53:57)

I have found absolutely no interference whatsoever with my classical technique!!!! neither has my professor!! i don't get it, they aren't THAT different. I just think of them as seperate techniques. my flamenco picado i sometimes use in a classical piece where some aggression is needed, but certainly not in a sor etude lol.




guitarbuddha -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 8:10:30)

Hi Hemeola man, pretty much that is my experience with one exception. I cannot use a flamennco thumb stroke(flesh on side of thumb), when I tried to it confused the hell out of my hand. I have to agree though I couldn't live without my picado now it is up and running.

D.




HemeolaMan -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 8:22:23)

as for string height changing the volume i will attest to the fact that it makes a substantial difference.

i tore out the electronics from my guitar, i had virtually no saddle clearance above the bridge anyways lol

so i put in a new saddle, and it was much taller, that combined with stripping the polyeurethane mad ea 100% volume difference.

however, it is hard to do decent clean rasgueos. lowering the action at the bridge probably wont interfere with anything other than sound. i havent noticed significant right hand difference

i do recommend that you have three saddles, one high classical one, one low accompanying one and one middle one where its a balance so that you can take it round in extreme weather.




el ted -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 11:43:53)

,




bahen -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 17:37:10)

quote:

A small tip.... If you want to file down the saddle in order to lower the string height, DON'T file down the one on the guitar. Buy a NEW one and practise on that. That way if you get it wrong, you can always refit the original saddle.


Well said. My motivation for lowered action has to do with messy tremolo at the higher frets, since the impressed string(s) are a lot lower than the unimpressed ones, it makes it all very messy. So a lowered action would help in this respect.

Will definitely purchase a new bit and file that down.




bahen -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 17:41:55)

quote:

Volume is a weird thing. If you play a lot of solo stuff, this kind of "classical" volume might be what you want. But its not specially flamenco.


I only play solo, unfortunately. In any event, I'd like to keep the volume I have already (mine is the loudest guitar you will ever hear), lower the action, and increase the signature flamenco buzzing. Some wings would be nice too. hehe.

In all seriousness, I'd like to increase the buzzing of my instrument. Any thoughts?




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 18:27:20)

quote:

In all seriousness, I'd like to increase the buzzing of my instrument. Any thoughts?


Lower the strings[8|]




Ricardo -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 22:48:32)

I dont' understand the physics but, lowering the strings closer to the board, makes the guitar lose a little volume (you would think the opposite!). But what you lose by doing that you gain ease of play, right and left hand, quicker response, and "snap" of the the strings. I think the snapping makes the guitar a bit brighter too. You can regain some lost volume by switching to higher tension strings. Don't underestimate the importance of string brand and tension. Not all guitars like the same strings, so don't be afraid to waste a little $ experimenting with strings, or mixing and matching different sets. When you find what your guitar likes, it will really have been worth it.

For Guitarbuddah, don't be so afraid to adjust your way to play abit for a different guitar set up. I have several guitars and each requires every so slightly a different touch so to speak. A good guitar can't be "over played" as you described, even with a very low action. YOu dont' want the guitar to sound like a banjo of course! But playing over the rosette for example, is not so typical in flamenco technique. Playing closer to the bridge, not so much as far as the "metallic" sound, but in the middle, is what I call the "sweet spot" that I try to find, and each guitar might be a little different. I move my hand milimeters till I find it. Some guitars don't have what I am looking for, but all good flamenco guitars I can find that spot.

I will never forget once seeing Gerardo take a students guitar and start playing. At first the guitar had a bit of a "nasal" sound, but over time he kept playing and the sound changed. By the end the guitar was very sweet clear and punching, and it was because of the way his right hand was adjusting to the guitar.




guitarbuddha -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 15 2007 23:24:32)

Thanks Ricardo. I spend a lot of my time playing childrens quarter size guitars and I always try and find the guitar's voice and how it wants to be played. Really what is worrying me is that the guitars that I tried didn't have a lot to offer in terms of tonal variety and raw volume. Basically I want to try a few and find one that I like.
When I was in Pamplona (I know that this is by no means flamenco country) I tried a guitar with the action so low that it didn't even sound like a guitar. I suspect that things are going the way of electric guitars where people buy a guitar with the action set as low as possible because it flatters their fingers. I had a pupil once with a Les Paul of which he was clearly proud but the guitar sounded like sh@t because of a crazy HM lead setup.

The thing about playing over the rosette perhaps I should have said keeping my nails off of the soundboard (before the string is released I hasten to add). My right hand moves about a lot as I play (well not so much in buleria but certainly in Solea ).

Basically I want to try a guitar which really makes me want to buy it, I've been waiting so long that I don't want to be dissapointed.

D.




Patrick -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 16 2007 0:01:59)

quote:

I dont' understand the physics


It all comes down to "break angle" and downward force on the saddle. As you lower the saddle the "break angle" (angle of the string over the saddle) is reduced. As the break angle reduces, less energy from the vibrating string is transferred to the saddle, which of course results in less energy to the top.

Trust me it can make a big difference. I lowered the saddle on one of my DeVoe's and literally hit a point that volume (and tone) dropped decidedly. At one point it sounded great and "bang" too far. To prove it to myself I placed a shim under the saddle and all was well. The result, cut a new saddle and start all over again.

Some builders are using 12 hole tie blocks to help maintain a sharp break angle with lower strings. I have had guitars with both and can’t say it makes a lot of difference, but the theory is valid. One of my DeVoe’s has a 12 hole and the other a 6. But then again, my Green blanca has a 6 hole and a fairly flat break angle and has great volume, so go figure.




bahen -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 16 2007 3:15:14)

quote:

quote:

In all seriousness, I'd like to increase the buzzing of my instrument. Any thoughts?

Lower the strings



So a question for luthiers and others who know the specs: what's the typical height for the saddle on blancas? This obviously varies due to the height and position of the fretboard and the piece on which the saddle rests (not sure of its name), but does anyone have measurements on hand? E.g., if the fretboard is X mm. higher than the top of the guitar, and if the piece that holds the saddle is Xmm high, then the typical height of the saddle piece itself would be Xmm.

Thoughts?




koella -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 16 2007 8:35:50)

Anders always builds 9 to 10 mm between strings and body, I believe.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 16 2007 18:14:53)

Nope.

I´ve said that 9 - 10mm can be accepted as flamenco setup, but I build around 8mm and prefer a tad lower myself




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 16 2007 18:18:15)

quote:

So a question for luthiers and others who know the specs: what's the typical height for the saddle on blancas? This obviously varies due to the height and position of the fretboard and the piece on which the saddle rests (not sure of its name), but does anyone have measurements on hand? E.g., if the fretboard is X mm. higher than the top of the guitar, and if the piece that holds the saddle is Xmm high, then the typical height of the saddle piece itself would be Xmm.

Thoughts?


Its impossible to say. It all depends on the neckangle. The height of the fret board is not specially interesting. IMHO opinion, a VERY good setup will be some 7 - 8mm string above the soundboard at the bridge, 8 - 9 mm at the soundhole and 6th string above the 12th fret around 3mm.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 16 2007 18:27:07)

Volume is much more a matter of tecnique than anything else. Its not the guitars volume that is interesting but the volume a player can produce on a certain instrument.
You take 2 guitarists with their perfectly mached instrument. A very traditional classical school and a very flat agressive Jerez style flamenco guitars. You swap their guitars and none of them will be able to produce volume. None of them will be able to play at the sweet spot.
Both instruments will need to be played the way that suits them. If you can do so, both instruments can be very interesting. if not, they are both very boring.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 17 2007 12:49:20)

quote:

I had a pupil once with a Les Paul of which he was clearly proud but the guitar sounded like sh@t because of a crazy HM lead setup.


To be honest, I dont think you get the point guitarbudhha and what you say is just prejudice.

Art is ethics, and Heavy Metal ethics is what you describe as sh@t..... If you changed the setup of this guys Less Paul with 12 gauge strings and a Jazz setup, he would maybe tell you that the guitar sounds like sh@t or maybe he will be more openminded and tell you that it doesnt suit his purpose.

So is Flamenco. It has its ethics, and everyone is allowed to think and mean whatever they want, but the ethics will (hopefully) stay the same. Even the best players here in Spain still look for a VERY percussive guitar, because in their flamenco ethics its the thing that counts the most. You can say that adjusting the strings higher, playing closer to the soundhole, evt. Putting higher frets on the guitar will make the guitar louder. They will just laugh at you[&:] because they will think you havent a clue, that you havent an idea of what is flamenco ethics.

You can go outside Spain and most good flamenco players will tell you the same. Read Ricardos posts, he actually dislike guitars with to many harmonics.... So do I for flamenco and so do most flamenco players.


You are of course allowed to think what you do, but please remember that its just your way of seeing things and that (maybe) you could learn from others.

I can understand that you dont have a "real" flamenco guitar. It explains a lot. Get one. It´ll teach you an enourmous amount of flamenco ethics, and most probably it´ll change your way of thinking and playing.
The same with this guys Les Paul. Ask him if you can join in with his Heavy group, and play his sh@tty sounding guitar ove a double Marshall stack with tons of distortion. Maybe it´ll change your life as well.[8D]




guitarbuddha -> RE: Volume and lowering the action (Nov. 17 2007 16:59:37)

Anders I respect your opinion on guitars,also your knowledge on their construction and maintenance clearly exceeds mine by several orders of magnitude. I also know that you are a capable and experienced guitar player.

You're not going to like the rest but YOU SET THE TONE.

The Les Paul sounded bad mostly because the strings were SITTING ON TOP OF of the first fret, rendering it unsuitable for open string playing. It was set up badly YOU WOULD CERTAINLY AGREE. I have a similar problem on my Ibanez destroyer but find it suitable for shredding whenever I feel the urge (almost never but I still like to hear it done well -see the Greg Howe I posted) but it is useless for thrashy rhythm playing no matter how much distortion I use because the pitch is too indistinct it needs repaired . However, oddly enough my pupil who owned the les Paul in question was a sixty something exmechanic WANTED TO PLAY JAZZ and he bought a Les Paul because of the name Les Paul, the Jazz player and innovator and electronics innovator who designed it. The set up was not his decision it was the shops, it was done poorly (and I HAVE had an instrument which was set up well for HM and know how it should feel). Shops know that particulary for electric guitars people buy mostly on playability and looks, I am not morally or 'ethically' opposed to this style of setup but if it is done badly then the guitar neither plays nore sounds good. I feel that I could have done him better justice as a teacher if I had known more about jazz and how to teach it.

Being unashamed of playing classical does not make me prejudiced against flamenco or flamenco guitars or any other style of music. However being unashamed of playing classical DOES inspire responses like yours. Here are a list of your prejudices (defined as assumptions that you have made about me for the purposes of your last post but which are false.)

1. I do not understand or appreciate HM, not true I should know, my party piece use to be shredding with one hand whilst chugging a litre of cidre. I had an Ibanez Destroyer II (still have it but it is neglected) with a DiMarzio super distortion pick up in bridge position. Real loud it sounded like Randy Rhoads (pre compression and EQ, the raw sound on the tribute album).
2. I would not like a guitar with a Jerez style set up. Wrong but I do not want to ONLY have a guitar like this.
3. I would presume to criticise a player whose playing is working, no I critise too much but only when I think something isn't working. I watched that Tomatito video that was posted of him playing Pas la pimpi and liked very much the sound and recording style. Is this the sound you are talking about? If so let me correct you. I love it, would I tell him to play differently no I wouldn't. Would I want this guitar YES, could I afford it NO, would I want it as my ONLY guitar, no I do not think that I could play slow Bach well on it, maybe some people could but not me.
4. You seemed to have forgotten,although I have not, the thread about hybrid guitars of which you were a substantial contributor. If I had mentioned that I could only afford one guitar and that that guitar would need to be a hybrid (actually that is what I did ) would you still have made some prejudiced ( but terribly 'hip') assumtions to allow you to incorrectly interpret the rest of what I had said ? I want to know where I can try one out here in scotland -or London- I am still hoping for positive advice on this.
5. I spend my whole life playing dolce. Nope.
6. Perhaps most crucially you seem to have assumed that drunken logic is terribly witty. Sorry no.Whatever is frustrating you in you real life or whoever your imaginary image of me ( clearly you haven't the foggiest idea who I actually am ) resembles (maybe a small minded violin teacher?) I am not to blame.

I deserve an apology. BE A MAN. And if you can't... at least notice that the prejudice is all yours.
Whatever I say is transformed by YOUR prejudice to suit your ends (and what noble ends ). Your are tacking on whole levels of flagrant untruth to what I say purely to make it risible. Instead of responding to what you WANT me to mean why not try and work out what I actually DO mean before attacking me, and if you have a point I'll try and take it on the chin (unfortunately I cant do this now because you have been so TOTALLY in error ). And next time you attack me ENJOY it for what it is, it is pointing at the new kid and saying 'he smells', the other kids will love you for it, some (most?) will believe I smell. At least when Koella does this he knows what he is doing.

Anders you know an awful lot, you are a fine craftsman and I have heard nothing but praise for your guitars. I am certain that I would be proud to own one, if it pleased you then there would be much of worth in it. You have wide ranging tastes in music and are clear and aritculate, your posts are generally well considered and enlightening. I am certain that on any subject over a beer you could entertain and delight me with your company. I am sorry that I have responded so vigorously today but I really have had more than enough of this sh@t from people here and am really dissapointed to find it coming from YOU. Your post was out of character and more worryingly your target was predictable . People often don't get me and that is my fault, I am a poor diplomat and use a style of prose which many peopl object to, also I have no talent for jumping on bandwagons. But I get really tired of people trying to convince me that their errors are more valid than reality. I am tired of people thumbing their noses at me from the bandwagon.


Yours FAITHFULLY

D
[:@][:@]


PS Please accept my apologies Bahen for obscuring the purpose of your thread.[&o]




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