RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 28 2007 22:40:04)

quote:

Another approach is to conciously avoid overly difficult pieces.


Which we will from now on refer to as the "Pacopaella approach".[;)][:D][:D]



PacoPaella -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 11:17:07)

Thx Ricardo! [:D] Even though i am sure others discovered this deep insight before me.

Flo, my comment was not directed at you, but at the Pura guy. Imho theres no need to be a showoff for an artist though. If thats what drives you, fine. While i dont perform, i know a couple of guys who do though and i am certain they have a different motivation, so i wouldnt generalize like that.

The point is that before visiting spain i used to listen to solo guitar, thinking "This is it!" and admiring the loooong hyper fast picados and tremolos which would almost rip the strings off the guitar and so on. Then when experiencing what real flamenco is about, i realized i wasted literally yaers of my musical life trying to learn stuff that has near to no musical meaning, but rather is the guitarists equivalent to comparing each others dicks. The real essence of flamenco guitar to me now is to learn to accompany, which by itself is very very hard, but takes other skills than beating the metronome at picados - understanding compas, feeling the flow, anticipation etc.. Sure you can decide for yourself that your goal in flamenco guitar is to play Puras 40 sec picados, that others here have judged to be boring beyond belief. But especially for a beginner it could be helpful to at least KNOW about the alternative.



Florian -> [Deleted] (Jul. 29 2007 11:42:52)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 29 2007 15:32:11



XXX -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 12:11:40)

Flamenco = solo guitar
real Flamenco = accompainment, (+avoiding difficult pieces?)
real real Flamenco = ?

?



Ailsa -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 12:38:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PacoPaella
the guitarists equivalent to comparing each others dicks


Oh hell guys, I just can't compete then...... [;)][:D][:D][:D]



Florian -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 12:39:24)

[:D][:D] u may borow one, i am not using mine atm and its in mid condition [:)]



Ailsa -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 12:42:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

its in mid condition [:)]


Mid condition? No, no, I want a perfect one!

PS sorry forgot to say thanks anyway. Don't want to seem ungrateful. [:D][:D]



Ailsa -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 12:44:22)

Do you think I would have got a bigger hit rate if I'd called this thread 'hands or testicles'? [:D][:D]

Sorry guys, think the testosterone must be catching..... [&:]



Florian -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 12:46:48)

hahah just dont want you to feel left out [:)]

no problem, its around here somewhere if you ever wanna enter those competitions [:)] just let me know



Florian -> [Deleted] (Jul. 29 2007 13:11:03)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 29 2007 15:32:37



PacoPaella -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 15:35:37)

quote:

then suddenly the melody of an entire verse of fandango is executed with picado at extraordinary speed and with absolute precision, possibly the longest continuous picado ever played. The effect has a tremendous impact, all those present bolt from their seats as if by spring action and thus ends the concert amidst cheering and applause.

Ths sentence alone shows how qualified the whole review is ... a great circus effect [8|]

You dont have to believe me though, just go back the thread where you worked on that picado, and look what others thought about its musical value.

Anyhow, fortunately, in music therse no absolute truth. Not yours, certainly not mine. I hope you enjoy listening and practising his pieces for a long time, and i am glad i am not forced to do the same [:D]



Florian -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 16:40:45)

Again we go back to the other point [:)]

Paco de Lucia, TOmatito, Vicente, Gerardo Nunes all do picado

quote:

You dont have to believe me though, just go back the thread where you worked on that picado, and look what others thought about its musical value


I am not sure why u think i need to check on what others think about something in order for me to make up my mind about my own thoutghs.[:D]

...but to be honest i didnt like that picado that much myself, true. i did it as a challenge to myself/ part exercise/ to see. but still thats not enough to say that all picado or anything technical its crap or useless or not flamenco, if picado is a circus act than Paco must be Bozo the clown because he perfected it and made his carrer on it.

So forghet about Nino for now [:)] pretend we are talking about Paco now, is his picado a circus act too ?


Picado is not necesary, true, but its no more a circus act than fast footwork from a dancer, or hard rasqueado, or a long strained singers voice belting out something or a strong alzapua.

there is no difference between them, they all thave that circus effect if thats what you wanna call it.


quote:

quote:

"then suddenly the melody of an entire verse of fandango is executed with picado at extraordinary speed and with absolute precision, possibly the longest continuous picado ever played. The effect has a tremendous impact, all those present bolt from their seats as if by spring action and thus ends the concert amidst cheering and applause......"
Ths sentence alone shows how qualified the whole review is ... a great circus effect


well yeah its called a performance.. i dont know the crowd sounds pretty happy according to the review.

its fair enough that you dont like it, not your cup of tea , cool. but u made it sound negative to be interested in it, thats what surprissed me [:D] your confidence.



PacoPaella -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 17:25:41)

I think the young paco used too much picado. Then again i am not that interested in solo guitar any more anyhow, for the reasons stated above.

Vicente does make rather rare use of his picado, despite the skill he has. Why? He uses it when he thinks it makes sense, musically. He doesnt use it to impress. That makes the difference. I dont say fast runs are evil, i just think that sometimes the technique is abused and also that it is far overrated and that i have seen and heard very good guitarists who hardly ever played picado (Lole y Manuel?).

Getting back to the topic, i think that for a flamenco beginner its important to not believe that flamenco guitar is only fast runs, just like its not like Gypsy Kings, Ottmar Liebert and so on. At least here, its far too easy to be mislead and waste years tryign to imitate circus sensations instead of learning the essence of the music. The result is the frustration that lead to - the creation of this thread.[;)]



XXX -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 18:43:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PacoPaella

Then again i am not that interested in solo guitar any more


For someone who is not interested in solo guitar anymore you critisize it a little bit too often [;)]

"the essence of music" - the essence of music is to have fun with it, and some like to hear fast picados and some dont. There is no problem, youre just creating one.



PacoPaella -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 20:33:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

quote:

ORIGINAL: PacoPaella

Then again i am not that interested in solo guitar any more


For someone who is not interested in solo guitar anymore you critisize it a little bit too often [;)]

"the essence of music" - the essence of music is to have fun with it, and some like to hear fast picados and some dont. There is no problem, youre just creating one.

you seem to be very aggressive, for reasons i cannot tell. What you call "creating a problem" is what i call expressing an opinion that seems to be a bit more related to the topic than your statement. I repeatedly said that i respect that everyone seems different things in music - so in fact it seems like you are out for confrontion, not me. Whatever tho, way too much testosterone in here hehe[;)]



Ailsa -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 20:50:08)

Hey guys - stop hijacking my thread already [;)] I only started it because I was after a bit of sympathy, no no I mean errr..... support and encouragement, yes that's it [;)][:D][:D][:D] And that's what I got, so thanks to all who replied.

To picado or not to picado? Whichever makes you happy guys!

A



Stu -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 21:19:27)

Well said!



val -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 21:51:49)

Ailsa
I'll give you symapthy and also total empathy. Whenever I've had guitar lessons, I can't do a thing - not only my hands seize up but my mind does too.

I'm going to cross-post the rest of this under a new thread in the hope of picking up other readers

I've not played in a long while for reasons too numerous to go into, but I'm hanging round this forum is to seek inspiration and motivation to start again. Realistically it's likely to be late Oct before I can put in the time I'd like to.

Help me out here guys. Here's my background (from the time-line you'll see I'm no chicken) - I challenge you to tell me where to go from here (no sarcastic responses)!

1980 - strumming around a few chords playing Streets of London etc
1981 - 1983 - Classical lessons first teacher - several hours a day practise, happy with progress. Reached aprox Grade 4/5 level but never did too much beyond the first 5 frets.
1984 - Year off - house move, renovations etc
1985 - Classical lessons 2nd teacher - two steps back , one forward
1986 - Year off - house move, renovations
1987 - DIY Flamenco guitar from Juan Martin's book (practised lots, but only the easier stuff)
1988 - Classical lessons 3rd teacher - another two steps back , one forward
1989 - Started work full-time plus major life-crap. No time to practise - guitar shelved apart from the occasional dabble.

1994 - Found Flamenco DANCING. Have listened to lots of flamenco since then.

I had a couple of Flamenco guitar lessons 3-4 years ago and worked on some Solea and Fandango for accompanying beginner classes. I can still play the Fandango if I get my notes out (very basic, but compas good).
My dance teacher would like me to accompany again from time to time and I would like this too. It would also be great when I get together with like-minded friends.

As you can imagine, my music tuition has always been very structured - taking the manuscript and working through it bit by bit and slowly. I find I don't have a good ear for recognising chords when I hear them and don't really understand chord sequencing. This means I don't automatically sense where to place my fingers for the next appropriate sound. Can't improvise and certainly can't say "You hum it, I'll play it". I've a tendancy to learn things by rote and do like to have stuff written down. Throw into the equation a very weak left wrist which I broke about 18 months ago (no - I didn't do my physio).
Flamencowise - I recognise most of the different forms when I hear them (tarantos sometimes catches me out) and fully understand and can keep up the compas. Can do palmas moderately well and can play castanets.

SO...... Where do I start? .......... Treat me as a beginner. I'm not really interested in any fancy stuff- it doesn't do it for me
Thanks in advance
Val



XXX -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 21:59:17)

@Paco: not aggressive. I just kept it short, did that sound aggressive? Long version: With "creating problem" i meant that with sentences like "real flamenco", "essence of music" you say that others just dont "get it" what music is. Its the same thing what Florian refered as confidence. I mean, if you could proove why extreme picado is not "real flamenco", no problem. But this way, well... it lacks a little bit.
The "problem" refers to that people dont get "real flamenco"
The "creating" refers to that there is no "real" flamenco to "get", unless you can proove that there is. Then i would agree to you. btw: saying you respect different views and claiming to know a "real" view is a hard contradiction.

So, lets just agree to this so we can close this:
quote:

To picado or not to picado? Whichever makes you happy guys!



koella -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 29 2007 22:10:01)

You need a vacation Deniz.[:D]
It will make you more relaxed and less aggresive.
Trust me, I did. And now I can even read your posts without banging my head against the computerscreen.



mrMagenta -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 30 2007 0:51:55)

please excuse me.. i don't mean to pry.. but... Mid condition! BWAHAAH [:D][:D][:D] Did you take a bad hit during the bottle wars at the broken glass processing plant? [:@]



mrMagenta -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 30 2007 1:07:08)

Oh, but on topic. I had the exact same experience of tentacle fingers when I first played something for my teacher.. i was suprized it hit me so hard because i hadn't had big problems playing around other people before. it continued in some extent the second time, then the third etc. But for each time it got better. What helps me the most is to be upfront about it, not try to bury it.. and also do what others said on this thread; start out veery simple, shake the stiffness out of my hands, do some rasgueados and very simple finger coordination warmups.



Florian -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 30 2007 6:41:45)

quote:

please excuse me.. i don't mean to pry.. but... Mid condition! BWAHAAH Did you take a bad hit during the bottle wars at the broken glass processing plant?


hehe no silly [:)] mid condition as in USED [:D] why is yours brand new?? [:D]



Ailsa -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 30 2007 8:02:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrMagenta

Oh, but on topic


Ah, at last a sensible reply [;)][:D][:D]

Just teasing guys, you know I like a joke too. [:)]



XXX -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 30 2007 13:17:52)

@koella: im flying into holidays in 4 hours! As to your post: if you have something to critisize with me, do it, if not, well... [;)] continue banging if it helps i dont know [:D]

Im not agressive you ***** ****! JOKES [8|]

Its always fun to discuss about the essence of music. Not productive, but fun.



koella -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 30 2007 14:17:50)

Gimme a hug neighbour...*MWAH*[sm=kiss.gif]

Happy vacation.



Pimientito -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 30 2007 17:27:26)

QUOTE"we all have off days! Nobody is perfect except maybe Paco;)"

I saw an an interview where paco said even he had days when he couldnt think of new stuff or felt he couldnt play well (although i would swap one paco bad day for all of my good days). If paco gets bad days then no one else should feel bad about getting them too!



a_arnold -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Jul. 30 2007 23:44:24)

Practice playing in ANY stressful situation will help. At my first gig I was pathetically grateful that there was enough background noise in the restaurant that nobody was listening to me.

But I got over it. Eventually I was able to play in an auditorium to a captive audience when I was the only one on stage. Every step along the way was nerve wracking but you get over it if you do it enough. Unfortunately, I've been told that staying away from public playing for a long time can cause all those fears to come back, even in an experienced performer.

But here's some practical advice: when you are solo in your own home, record yourself playing on digital recorder, or even on a mike/tape recorder. Even that can cause enough nervousness that you begin to get a handle on how to control it.



Ailsa -> RE: hands or tentacles? update (Aug. 15 2007 11:56:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold
But here's some practical advice: when you are solo in your own home, record yourself playing on digital recorder, or even on a mike/tape recorder. Even that can cause enough nervousness that you begin to get a handle on how to control it.


Hey Anthony you are right! I tried it! Only the mic and minidisk were listening and I still got nervous. Respect to all you guys that record yourselves and post on the Foro [:)][:)]

But here's an update - had a lesson this last weekend and it went much better. Yes I was still nervous and my fingers were shaky, but I got over it and generally I was able to play much more like I do when I'm practising at home.

Thanks you guys for your advice. Here's a kiss on both cheeks to you all.[sm=kiss.gif][sm=kiss.gif]



Raimundo -> RE: hands or tentacles? help needed (Aug. 27 2007 9:01:07)

Hi Alisa

I think my replay is too late after all that support you get from good guys but what I want to say is don't worry if you had bad play day because I had one week bad play and I never give up

I teach my self and I know that I can play but it happens some time [:D]



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