string action (Full Version)

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koella -> string action (May 16 2007 8:44:42)

I tried to find the answer in old threads but I couldn't find it.

1. How high is the ideal action on a flamenco guitar at the twelfth fret.
Mine is now 2.5 mm at the trebles and 4 mm on the bass side

2. On a classical the guitar, the action on the trebles is set lower then on the bass side. Does this go for flamenco's too ?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: string action (May 16 2007 10:00:43)

Hi Huub

A standard Flamenco setup is around 3 - 3,2 on bass and 2,5 - 2,8 on treble. This is from top of the fret to bottom of the string. The difference between bass and treble on a flamenco is generally small than on a classical.

You can go lower if the player has a very high controled right hand. Below 2,8mm it starts buzzing a lot when playing rasgueados



koella -> RE: string action (May 16 2007 12:16:48)

Thanks Anders.



Ramón -> RE: string action (May 16 2007 18:22:53)

I learned from Yuris at Blue Guitar in San Diego (he does many of the highest-end guitar refinishes, repairs, restorations, setups for professionals, Guitar Salon, etc.), and if you are a flamenco accompaniest, the strings are basically the heights Anders gives, but for soloist, raising the treble side (as you now have it) can bring up the trebles considerably.

Raising the entire action can increase volume, as in classicals, but unless you are classically-trained and LIKE it high like that, the Low E, higher, and the High E, lower, is what most guitars are set at.

I'm basically an accompaniest, but still like the projection of raised trebles, especially since my basses are kind of huge.

Right now, I'm right at 3 on the low E, slightly over 3 on the high E. Works well for me. I might play that down a little on the next string-change (high E side) and see what happens.

Just my thoughts....

R



koella -> RE: string action (May 16 2007 20:07:53)

Hey thanks Ramón.
I only don't understand this sentence:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramón
Raising the entire action can increase volume, as in classicals, but unless you are classically-trained and LIKE it high like that, the Low E, higher, and the High E, lower, is what most guitars are set at.


Koella



Haithamflamenco -> RE: string action (May 16 2007 21:20:59)

i am so confuzed,

where exactly the hight on the strings and which fret???????

12 fret, and first , 6th strings????!

need more explanation amigos??!

i am lost,[:D]



TANúñez -> RE: string action (May 16 2007 21:27:47)

Koella,

This will vary from guitar to guitar. 2.5mm at the trebles may be fine on one guitar but not so good on another. There are many factors that must be taken into consideration. On some guitars, lowering the action to achieve a certain height will not always be possible depending on the neck angle or the height of the bridge. However, what Anders said is pretty standard for many guitars.



koella -> RE: string action (May 16 2007 22:07:34)

Hi Tom.

I don't know if this helps. But it's a Gerundino.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: string action (May 17 2007 9:40:37)

Huub

That its a Gerundino doesn´t change anything. Its the individual guitar Tom is talking about.

If your action at the 12 fret, 6th string is 4mm between top of fret and bottom of string... Its VERY high.



koella -> RE: string action (May 17 2007 10:30:53)

Ok thanks Anders.
Then another question :

The guitar has been refretted and the basses don't seem to buzz anymore.
But I'm still allergic to any buzzing.
So my question, when you lower the basses to 3mm is it allright that the basses buzz when you play pulgar lines with full force ?

Thanks.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: string action (May 17 2007 16:18:40)

Huub

This with buzzing is personal and some people are allergic to buzzing. IMO a flamenco guitars should buzz when you play it with power. Its part of the sound. Listen to Sabicas, he buzzes tremendously and if you´ve got Gerardo Nuñez DVD you can also hear a quite heavy buzz.

When I set up a guitar, my goal is that when you play "clean" things like Granaina, buzzing is almost non existant. Only a bit when you push with the thumb. When you play rythmical stuff like bulerias I want the guitar to buzz. If not, it doesn´t inspire me and I think my taste is quite normal in this aspect.

I think you´re still suffereing from a "classical" ear.[;)]



koella -> RE: string action (May 17 2007 20:16:43)

Ok Anders, I understand now somehow what I should accept as normal.

I just lowered the bone from 4 to 3.5 mm. The definitive bone is not on it yet so I can experiment. I must say it's not so bad. I'll try it a few days and maybe lower it some more. It has a more raw sound now too, so that's good.



edgar884 -> RE: string action (May 18 2007 1:28:28)

I have found that a good way to go is, every other time you change strings sand your bridge a little more and before you know it, it will be just where you ant it.



koella -> RE: string action (May 18 2007 9:29:37)

That's a good one Gabriel. But there's the risk of going one sanding job too far.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: string action (May 18 2007 13:55:49)

Thats why its good to have an extra saddle so that you have a reference point.

Depending on guitar and place where you live, some have summer and winter saddles because the guitar reacts a lot to humidity changes. This especially in areas with cold and very dry winters and humid summers



koella -> RE: string action (May 18 2007 14:51:16)

Ok Anders. Maybe I should save this one, cause it seems allright now.
But I can't resist to make another one to see if I can get it even a little bit lower.[:D]

Maybe I should do an upload to let you hear and judge.



wiseguy493 -> RE: string action (May 18 2007 16:22:01)

You can also cut a piece of card stock to shim under the nut if humidity/weather changes make the action a problem. This is a good, fast, cheap, effective alternative to cutting a new nut if you find yourself 30 minutes before a concert having fret buzz when playing the open strings =)



wiseguy493 -> RE: string action (May 18 2007 16:26:12)

Raising height does not increase volume, but raising height can allow you to use a less directed and more powerful attack resulting in more volume.

If you have a very controlled technique and properly applied fingernail usage, volume should not be an issue because most of the time you'll be holding back force to keep each note/chord as clear and projected as possible, with occasionally increases of force as demanding by the musical style. Playing this way is more precise and gives you a wider dynamic range than always trying to get as much volume as you can, and will sound better as an end result (and just as loud too)



koella -> RE: string action (May 18 2007 17:37:39)

Thanks for the advice Eric. Good thoughts too.[:)]



TANúñez -> RE: string action (May 18 2007 21:30:35)

quote:

Hi Tom.

I don't know if this helps. But it's a Gerundino.


It would be difficult to determine without actually seeing the guitar. Like Anders said, any experiments you do should be done on an extra saddle. Leave your original one alone in case of accidents.



koella -> RE: string action (May 18 2007 22:09:27)

Well, the fingerboard has been flattened/planed ( english ? ) and it's been refretted so the old saddle doesn't fit anymore.

I'm adviced to experiment with this temporary saddle so the luthier can make me a new one when I'm satisfied.

Good idea ?



TANúñez -> RE: string action (May 19 2007 5:31:15)

Koella, I'm a bit confussed, what does the saddle have to do with the fingerboard? Perhaps I misunderstood your response. Do you mean that the bridge has been altered in some way that the saddle will no longer fit?



Ricardo -> RE: string action (May 19 2007 6:22:35)

he probably means the finger board is lower, so the action now feels higher. So he needs to have the saddle lowered or set properly based on the new fingerboard feel. I know this is done to flamenco guitars that were not set right to begin with so in order to have a clean sound, you have to have the bone higher than comfy for the right hand.

I wish they had a term other than "action" to describe the right hand feeling based on saddle height, vs the action of the strings over the fingerboard (left hand). The whole concept of shaving down the fingerboard to raise the action to save having to raise the saddle, begs for a term that distinguishes between the two "actions", RH vs LH.

Ricardo



Anders Eliasson -> RE: string action (May 19 2007 8:23:25)

quote:

I wish they had a term other than "action" to describe the right hand feeling based on saddle height, vs the action of the strings over the fingerboard (left hand).


Its called stringheight above soundboard. It should be meassured two places. At the bridge and at the soundhole.

Action is stringheight above fingerboard.



koella -> RE: string action (May 19 2007 9:55:01)

Yes Ricardo that's what I meant.
Furthermore there was a little bend in the neck. So in any case the fingerboard had to be shaved down in the 1th - 5th position.



TANúñez -> RE: string action (May 19 2007 13:56:42)

Ah. Ok I see. If the fingerboard is now lower, lowering the saddle may not fix the problem. It might, but if lowering the saddle is not enough, you may have the lower the slot where the saddle fits in and/or have some wood taken off the the top part of the bridge to allow the saddle to be taken down a little more. Hope I'm not confussing you. It may be easier for the luthier just to remove your old saddle and install a new one that will work with this new fingerboard alteration.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: string action (May 19 2007 18:05:45)

Well, I ask myself:

Why did the luthier shave the fingerboard and made a 4mm setup? Does he know about flamenco guitars?

How many will accept a 4mm setup? 2%??? how many will accept a 3,5mm setup 10%???



TANúñez -> RE: string action (May 19 2007 18:34:39)

I've seen many flamenco guitars "ruined" as far as setups by luthiers who really don't know the flamenco guitar well. There are luthiers out there who make great classical guitars and assume a flamenco is the same guitar with cypress back and sides and a lowered action.



koella -> RE: string action (May 19 2007 19:22:04)

Well in fact he makes classical guitars, but he made a few flamenco's.

You got me worried here Tom. You say luthiers can ruin the guitar.
In what way can they ruin them ?[:o]



Ricardo -> RE: string action (May 19 2007 19:33:14)

quote:

Its called stringheight above soundboard. It should be meassured two places. At the bridge and at the soundhole.

Action is stringheight above fingerboard.


Well, I know that. I just wish there was a cool word that players can use to describe it like "action". Perhaps there is one, even in a different language?? I have seen players describe "string height over the soundboard" or just the fact the bone/bridge was super low as "low action". If the set up is such you have low bridge but not low action, some guys incorrectly describe it as "low action but clean", because there is no buzz. Or "hard" or "stiff action" to describe the fingerboard. If there was a single word, then it would make a clear distinction to the problem a guitar has with the set up rather than haveing to allways describe the string height at location X.

Also I am looking for a word to describe the string spacing. Like when it is wider it feels a certain way, better than when the strings are squeezed close. And again the feeling is different for the left hand than right hand, because of the nut or tapering that might happen. So a simple word like "action" gives a lot of info.

My assumption as to why a guitar would have the fingerboard shaved to raise action, is because the either the brigde is uncomfortabley high, or the neck has bent or something. I would assume the bridge was examined closely so that that it CAN be lowered 1.5 mm so the action does not stay 4mm, and the sound is still clean. In some cases the bridge can't be lowered any more than it is, which can be a problem. But I have seen some INSANELY low bridge set ups that seem to work great.

Ricardo



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