full size guitar plan

full size guitar plan (Full Version)

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flamenco_9 -> full size guitar plan (May 3 2007 10:04:18)
the file is here http://www.foroflamenco.com/guitar_plan_full_size/m_63601/p_1/tmode_1/smode_1/tm.htm the guitar I think is Hernandez and Aguado pls add your comment and illustration about this I wounder about page 5 any help? what u think that guitar is flamenco or classical according to fan bracing.

Per Hallgren -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 3 2007 11:59:26)
Hernandez y Aguado are known mainly as classical builders. Although they have made a few flamenco guitars the probability that the plans is showing such a guitars is very small. However the plans seem to be quite crudely done since some details are drawn incorrect according to my experience of H y A guitars. Where have you found the plan?

r0bbie -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 3 2007 15:54:09)
This plan is close to the plans in the book Making Master Guitars by Roy Courtnall. At least in some points but the depth of the body differs a couple of milimeters for instance and there are more differences but that could be if you measure two different guitars I think. And also the neck is thicker at the head then where it joins the body in the plan you have got. I have not seen this yet on any other plan but I am no expert. It looks like someone made this in a hurry.... Rob.

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 3 2007 18:40:48)
quote: ORIGINAL: Per Hallgren Hernandez y Aguado are known mainly as classical builders. Although they have made a few flamenco guitars the probability that the plans is showing such a guitars is very small. However the plans seem to be quite crudely done since some details are drawn incorrect according to my experience of H y A guitars. Where have you found the plan? hi Per Hallgren I got it from emule what things that you mentioned are drawn incorrect ? and what you think about this plan any ideas or suggestions? thanx!

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 3 2007 18:43:00)
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flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 3 2007 18:50:59)
quote: ORIGINAL: r0bbie This plan is close to the plans in the book Making Master Guitars by Roy Courtnall. At least in some points but the depth of the body differs a couple of milimeters for instance and there are more differences but that could be if you measure two different guitars I think. And also the neck is thicker at the head then where it joins the body in the plan you have got. I have not seen this yet on any other plan but I am no expert. It looks like someone made this in a hurry.... Rob. hii hii r0bbie can you tell regarding the top thickness that mentioned in your book any thing else that not mentioned in the plan. thanx!

r0bbie -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 3 2007 23:17:50)
Hi, I did post a reply earlyer but it got lost somewhere.... I compared the drawing with the plans in the book from Courtnall and it seems the body is 4 to 5 mm wider and deeper. The back and sides are 2 mm according to this book. The thickness of the neck at the nut should be 21.7mm and not 27. That would make the neck decrease in thickness from the nut to the body and I have not seen this on other guitars yet. I am no expert but I got about 10 plans telling different. I dont understand your question about page 5 but again, its the same as in the book of Courtnall. The only thing missing is the thickness of the extention of the heel that is glued on the back, I guesed it but if you want to know for sure I'dd ask the luthers among us[;)] Rob

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 2:30:00)
hii r0bbie thanx for responding! regarding the neck my guitar is suspiro and the nick is thicker from the side of the nut comparing to the side of heel maybe that is the old school my guitar maybe 30 years old. what you think is it flamenco or classical? does the less fan braces means it is flamenco?

Per Hallgren -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 5:41:41)
... quote: what things that you mentioned are drawn incorrect ? Well, the profile of the fan struts is drawn incorrect and the neck block too, i.e. compared to the three HyA I have seen in real life and in pictures. I say as Robbie, the plan look very alike the plan that Cournall sell, which also is drawn incorrect by the way...

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 14:46:25)
hii Per Hallgren thank you again can you tell what is the wrong with fan braces and what you think the guitar is classical of flamenco?

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 14:48:09)
hey lutheriers can you come in please share us your expereince!!

r0bbie -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 15:26:43)
@ Flamenco_9 I dont know if it's a flamenco or classical. I think it is a light guitar so it could be a flamenco but I could be wrong as well [&:] Perhaps you allready know but Per is one of the luthers.... view his profile [8D] @Per You say you have seen three guitars made by HyA and they where different then Courtnall writes in his book. Could that be because you measured different guitars or is it a well known fact that Courtnall messed up the drawings a bit? He claims to have measured three guitars as well, from 1963, 1966 and 1968. Just curious[;)] Rob

Per Hallgren -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 16:34:04)
Two of the three guitars that Courtnall used for his book was, or had been (don't remember clearly) in the possession of a man who gave me a thick bunch of photos of these guitars when he visited me to buy a Hernandez y Aguado guitar that I had for sale. He is a collector and have owned a lot of H y A guitars, Fletas, etc. We talked about the difference between the published drawings and the real instruments. To me it seem as if Courtnall and his drawing guy choose to show a lot of the things on the drawings as "one-size-fits-all" symbolic details. For example a lot of the fan struts are drawn exactly the same on all the plans and very very different from the real instrument struts. All the fan struts on the one that I sold to the collector and the pictures I have from his other HyA guitars are very similar in shape, and totally different from the shape on the plan, despite the fact that the guitars are from a 7 year long period. I would be very surprised if the guitar on "your" plan is not a classical guitar. The HyA guitar from 1963, IIRC, is the one which the plan is made from

Jim Opfer -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 16:36:07)
That's interesting, set out as a graph. Is there a geometric basis for the shape with centre point locations and tangents etc? Bit like the 'golden section' or something. Just looks arbitrary to see a 'shape' with no underlying structure.

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 18:21:40)
hiii Per Hallgren and r0bbie thanx for responding that plan as I told you I get it via emule and here is the file name [luthier-lutherie]-Plano.Guitarra.Clasica it named as classical but as r0bbie said I think it is flamenco coz of smaller and shalower body. Per what make you sure it classical not flamenco can you tell us about this point is less fan brace make the guitar more flamenco? I saw HyA in your site..woow it is peice of art really that pic in white and black looks like fan brace like Barbero. it seems that there there are another systems that HyA used here is a pic I got from a web site that shows HyA bracing.

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 18:26:44)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer That's interesting, set out as a graph. Is there a geometric basis for the shape with centre point locations and tangents etc? Bit like the 'golden section' or something. Just looks arbitrary to see a 'shape' with no underlying structure. hiii Jim can you do that for us..I think you are arch. engineer..right?

Per Hallgren -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 19:10:58)
Many makers (if not most of us) use several different bracing systems and HyA was not different in this case. You ask why I consider the plan to show a classic guitar. There are at least two obvious details proving that this is not a flamenco guitar IMO, and that is the side depth and the height of the bridge. Typical for a classical guitar rather than a flamenco. Jim, as the design person I can feel that you are I would like to recommend an interesting book about geometrical construction of musical instruments. The author is Kevin Coates (have forgot the exact title). The book was published in the late eighties and is probably out of print but try at the library.

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 19:56:28)
hii Per Hallgren so is it that simple..if the bridge was lowerd it will be flamenco what about the braces what it tell? for you as luthier if you have a classical guitar and you want to make it flamenco what modification you will do to get it sound flamenco? we are not talking about the woods coz same woods are now used for both types. and bridge height things can be easily managed. I know maybe I am asking for your secrets but I hope you answer!! thanx alot. ps. the body depth in the plan 100-106 mm it is thin for classical...am not sure?

TANúñez -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 20:24:06)
flamenco_9, Don't forget one very important factor, the thickness of the top.

Per Hallgren -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 21:30:04)
quote: so is it that simple..if the bridge was lowerd it will be flamenco Never said that. And you can not change just the bridge height either... And you don't take a " classical guitar and you want to make it flamenco". The classical guitar and the flamenco guitar are close relatives, so close that many people can't se the difference, but they are different in a subtle way. As Tom points out it is much about thicknesses of the wooden parts but also in subtle geometric relations. The body in the plan is not thin for a classical guitar, rather the opposite actually. A flamenco is usually even thinner. Complicated, isn't it?[:)]

JBASHORUN -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 21:39:32)
quote: The body in the plan is not thin for a classical guitar, rather the opposite actually. A flamenco is usually even thinner If I remember rightly, a classical guitar is, on average, 9 or 10cm deep. If you buy a "cheap" Flamenco guitar, it may not be much different, but a luthier-made one is usually LESS than 9mm. So, what with the BRIDGE; the DEPTH of the body; and the SOUNDBOARD thickness, I would guess that the plans are for a CLASSICAL guitar. But I could be wrong... Jb

r0bbie -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 22:25:46)
quote: If I remember rightly, a classical guitar is, on average, 9 or 10mm deep Geeee... then I made mine way to deep with 10 cm [:D]

JBASHORUN -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 22:36:22)
quote: Geeee... then I made mine way to deep with 10 cm LOL, Robbie, I have TWO cheap classicals, and BOTH measure 9cm in depth. But 10cm is also common. And, in many cheaper Flamencos (like my Yamaha for example) there is no difference at all. The guitar I just finished measured 8mm. Jb

r0bbie -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 23:25:15)
Having fun to JB, but maybe a English mm is a lot bigger then the Dutch mm. A guitar with a dept of 9mm would be this thick "-----" depending on the resolution of you monitor of course [:)] So I think you mean 100mm or 10 cm. It would be nice for a travel guitar tho[;)] ad an foldable neck and you are in business[&:] Rob.

JBASHORUN -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 23:34:12)
HAHAAAA!!! Sorry man, said milimetres instead of CENTIMETERS!!! What can I say: It was late and the bottle was empty! [;)][:D] Jb PS: I edited the posts to their correct measurements.

r0bbie -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 4 2007 23:42:38)
quote: It was late and the bottle was empty! mmm heard that one before.... let me think...[;)] Cheers! Rob.

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 5 2007 20:32:11)
Hii everybody back to that plan if we make the body thiner and make the top 2mm what else can do to the braces? here is a pic that is from the plan I named and numberd all contenets by letters and numbers....what adjusment can be done to get that guitar into flamenco or in between flamenco and classical sound. Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 5 2007 21:09:02)
is the directions up-right is right??

Anders Eliasson -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 6 2007 10:35:15)
Flamenco_9 You asked me to join this thread. I have very little to say because the plan you show is very far from my understanding of a Spanish guitar, being classical or flamenco. I have not seen the file you uploaded when you started the thread, just the picture. If you make this one on a standard guitar size and with a 2mm soundboard, I could imagine it would boom out and be bassy and low pulsation. If you want to build a flamenco guitar, I will advice you to use another plan. Other things from the thread. Flamenco guitars dont have to have their soundboard thinner. Romanillos worked 2 - 2,1mm in spruce on his classical and some flamencos are thicker. Its all about balancing your concept. No golden rules. Another thing. There´s absolutely nothing wrong in making a flamenco 10cm deep. Reyes has done so and many others. Again, its all about balance in your concept. My guitars are around 9,5cm deep at the endblock.

flamenco_9 -> RE: full size guitar plan (May 6 2007 19:30:05)
hiii Anders..thank you for joining!!! I know what you are talking and I can understand that. I know the plan is not everything and you need to adjust the braces heights and top thickness acorrding to what the wood will tell you while you are making it maybe tapping on various parts of the top to get the perfect vibration you like to hear it is like when oscultate to heart or chest of a patients and what you hear guid you to what you do and what you look for!! but my quetions about that plan (which supposed to be HyA plan), what things can be done theoriticaly to get that guitar in flamenco or between flamenco and classic. I hope am not bothering you and I know it is defficult to answer theoriticaly. thanx amigo!!

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