a_arnold -> RE: compas in flamenco vs Indian ragas (Apr. 13 2007 20:23:45)
|
Ricardo: Thanks for the response. I didn't know there were so many Indian music fans! You wrote: "I like it, but mainly my record collection is of the SHAKTI group, which obviously has some western elements. Thanks for your detailed description, but I have some questions. First, the "ragas". I always thought of that as a scale with which they improvise on, or a melodic theme or note sequence that they base the improvisation off of. " I guess the way I learned is that the various ragas (they have names like Sree, Bhairav, Gujari Tori, Yemen), would be analogous to names like buleria, farruca, solea . . . you learn the characteristic scale and compas of each, and there are specific notes in the scale that are supposed to receive primary and secondary emphasis when a phrase resolves. These factors, and a few commonly-used phrases are what make a raga recognizable to the audience, the same way you would know within a few phrases that you are listening to a buleria, although each artist imposes his own interpretation and falsetas. (By the way, Yemen is the first raga taught to a novice, just like Soleares is usually the first in flamenco. It seems to be regarded as the ancestor of other ragas, but it is also the one reputed to be the hardest for students to get right, even though it is the first they learn.) Then you wrote: "But you seem to be saying the raga is the whole form also including the rhythm cycle? Is that true? So using the same scale or mode with a different rhythm pattern would be considered a different raga?" The way I learned, its a package: scale and rhythm cycle. Changing either can make it a different raga, or it could be simply regarded as wrong. Like in flamenco, not all combinations of scale and compas are used. There are some that share scales but not rhythmic patterns, and vice versa. (Assuming by rhythm cycle you mean the 16 beat – or “teen tal” and others -- analogous to compas). The alap/jod/jhalla sequence is a separate issue) Some share the scale AND the rhythm, but differ in the primary and secondary notes that receive emphasis (roughly, the kind of resolutions that are allowed). And of course each player has his own falsetas – although these are more like departure points for true jazz-like flights of improvisation – more so than in flamenco and certainly unlike anything in 20th century western classical music, although improvisation had a much larger role in previous centuries. I guess if one is looking for a western parallel for the alap/jod/jhalla configuration, it would be in the 18th century Suite form (or maybe Corelli's trio-sonatas da camera), having separate pieces strung together in the same key, like allemande-courante-sarabande-gigue, sometimes with a prelude -- although that's about as far as the parallel goes. Then you wrote: "Also, Indians often use the mode that sounds like western "lydian", related to major it would be 123#4567. What is that called in Indian music? " It would probably be referred to as the scale of a particular raga that uses it. Then you wrote: "Also Shakti has a tune that uses a 6 note scale, 1b2345b7. What is that one called? " Dunno. Not familiar with Shakti. The scales that I learned all had more than 6. Then you wrote: "Also you say they have the same 12 note scale but bend notes. " To clarify: They have the same logarithmically decreasing fret and frequency intervals we do, taking into account skipped notes peculiar to specific ragas. (The apparently irregular fret spacing has an underlying pattern just like a guitar, but with some frets missing. Close examination will reveal that the “missing” frets are always next to spaces between the sympathetic string pegs that allow the frets to be moved from one position to the “missing” adjacent space to shift the “gap” by a half step. If a fret were added in both positions, the fret spacing would look exactly like a guitar -- maybe with minor adjustments analogous to tempering. This feature makes it easier to hit fast scales because the notes you want to miss are left out anyway. None of the ragas use the full chromatic scale as their “characteristic” scale, just as you wouldn't play 12 consecutive chromatic notes if someone asked you to play a scale in bulerias. But all the scales are based on the same 12 notes, yes. With some left out. Then you wrote: "My understanding was that they actually have 22 notes to the octave, and the various modes or scales are typically based on 7 to 9 of those. Like they have a scale like western C major. But also one with 7 notes that has what would be the "A" note a bit flat, but sharper than G#, and no normal "A note". Things like that was my understanding." Depends on who you talk to, and how they try to translate Indian music into terms familiar to westerners. Most Indian teachers say (correctly) that you can't translate all the bent notes they use into western notation, so their way of talking to “us” necessitates some reference to fine gradations of frequency. I've talked to sitarists who claim to play 64 gradations of frequency between every fretted note. I think that's really just a way of trying to communicate with westerners in western terms. In practice, they just do a lot more bending of strings than we do in, say, jazz. And a WHOLE lot more than we do in classical or flamenco guitar. I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any forms where a note is required to actually resolve to a quarter-tone (or other intermediate) frequency. And in practice, they certainly don't try to name all those 64 notes. In the real world, you have to learn it by hearing it, and they have names (just like do re me . . .) for the ones that are represented by frets. Then you wrote: "Greeks had a similar tuning system using 24 notes to the octave. Indian tunings were/are the same, but the slightly off Octaves and 5th are never used. I have played Greek and Turkish instruments that were "modal" because the scale, the actual frets, had room for an extra note, a beautiful colorful sound. Of course any harmonies would clash with that "in between" note. I always assumed Indian classical instruments had similar possiblities, ie actual notes to hit not bend into. "Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. "Of course this Shakti group has guys using western instruments, so their modes are based on 6-7 note scales of the 12 note western chromatic. Mclaughlin bends strings and things, but I dont' hear him hitting those specific out notes like on Turkish instruments, or using those notes in the raga consistently. So I assume that is part of the "fusion" element of the band. "About the rhythm, what my ear tells me is the Indians have very nice odd cycles and things for improvising, in general I sense a transition point or "spring off" that leads to the "one" or down beat. Especially with the odd meter. Everything I hear feels like it leads to the "one". To me this a big difference with Flamenco compas where you have the "remate" or the phrases lead up and end a few beats early. They start again on or AFTER the "one". Very different feeling. Like in Solea or Bulerias, phrases can start on 1 or 12, but you really sense when things will end on "10", and I have not noticed that kind of thing in Indian rhythms. There are times that flamenco phrasing with go from the "transition point" to the one like Indian music. But for Indians it would be like they need to END their phrases, sometimes, on the transition point. Understand what I mean?" Not entirely. Indian melodic lines do tend to end on a specific beat, but until then the listener can be left with the impression that the sitar and tablas have departed from each other rhythmically by following different syncopations around the compas, so both are off beat in different ways and you start to wonder how the hell they are going to get home from here, which makes it all that much more satisfying when they do come back together at the end of the passage. If it's well done it can send a gasp and spontaneous applause through the audience. There are also certain key phrases called “mukras” that repeat a short (4-5 note) melodic line 3 times to come out on the final beat, which guides both listener and tabla to expect the resolution. In much the same way that you just “know” that 10th beat is going to bring a resolution in bulerias compas, and even if you lose track of the compas, you can pick it up again when you hear that familiar landmark. Then you wrote: "Anyway, I taught the compas of bulerias to some Indian drummers and when jamming, they kept playing "through" the remates to the 12. I could not get them to pick up on that in our brief sessions, but of course they could easily and quickly learn the cycle of accents." I think one of the best things about flamenco is when a falseta starts on an odd beat that adds a new wrinkle to the melodic line and yet it resolves correctly. The same thing that appeals to me in Indian music, but usually the passages are less lengthy. There are bulerias falsetas that begin (rather startlingly) on 2, or 3, or 6, or 12, and yet “make it home” on 10 after a few cycles. That seems to work best when it stands out in the context of an otherwise unambiguous (should I say strictly and clearly established?) adherence to compas. Then you wrote: "To hear a nice "modal" approach to flamenco, check out El Pele's siguiryas on the album "Canto". They have a drone and V. Amigo accompanies with ONE chord, the tonic, and that is it. I think that works especially nice for some cantes like Siguiriyas. Fandangos, no way, the whole beauty is the why the harmony is both "western" and modal at the same time." Thanks – I'll do that. You remind me of a long section in a 20 minute bulerias that one (or 2?) of the Gastors recorded – some juerga, I forget the name of the CD – in which the same A chord drones on forever (or at least for most of the last half), sticking to compas, and you'd think it would get boring, but it works, almost becoming hypnotic after a while. Duende wrote: "hey this is a great thing. Tell me some names huh? Indian music is not just sitar so what about some good flute players. i´d like Flute and also violin if they use that kind of instrument. " You might consider listening to some surbahar (Imrat Hussein Kahn) or sarod in addition to sitar. I guess I'd have to say that as instruments, the surbahar is to the sitar what the cello is to the violin – slow, deep, and majestic -- and the sarod is (very crudely) to the sitar what the banjo is to the guitar, but with the classical status that the banjo lacks. I think Ali Akbar Kahn on sarod is every bit the equal of the 3 “greats” on sitar (Ravi Shankar, Vilayat Kahn, and Nikhil Banerji). Like Avimuno says, I'd love for some real authorities to weigh in on this thread, because I'm not one, and I'm sure there are some great younger players out there, but if you want recommendations, I remain happy listening mostly to Vilayat Kahn. Bannerji is astoundingly fast and precise, and Shankar has a lot of instant popular appeal without sacrificing one bit of musicianship (so I always recommend him to first-time listeners); but they all astound me, and you can't go wrong with any of them. But as someone who has played the instrument for (only, and I do mean only) 8 years (just long enough to learn that I would have to sacrifice the guitar if I ever wanted to be good enough to satisfy myself) Vilayat Kahn seems (to me) to be the sitarists sitarist, if that makes sense. And Zakir Hussein is probably still the king of the tablas, although he started out seeming to be a bit of a brash “cowboy” -- almost challenging the instrument he was accompanying. I like vocals (Bhimsen Joshi is still magic, although I can't believe he is still alive; he was such a heavy drinker they literally had to prop him up on stage); I prefer female vocals – Lakshmi Shankhar, Ravi's sister, comes to mind as a good starting point). And I like the shanai (bismallah kahn is the go-to guy there) but because I'm a guitarist, I think I have a deeper appreciation of the stringed instruments than wind. avimuno wrote: "Learning indian classical music with a master is not like taking lessons in the west, it's much more rigourous and painful... it is said that the goal of every musician is to please the gods, not mere mortals." That's certainly the case. My teacher definitely felt entitled to rap my knuckles, and he almost refused to continue teaching me when I showed up for my second lesson and my fingertips weren't bleeding. After a month I had a deep groove in index and middle finger, with calluses that were as hard as horn. Slipping out of that groove during a glissando could result in a deep cut. It's like playing a wire cheese cutter. Fortunately, I had a "leg up" on technique because of 20 years of flamenco experience, and I progressed much more rapidly than the average novice -- rapidly enough to please him, anyway. MrMagenta wrote: "I love the sound of the sitar, i really want one. I hear they are really hard on your fingers though." I've sold mine. It was a wonderful instrument (I paid $600 in 1982) and it was a sin to leave it sitting around unplayed. You can get a very good one for well under $1k, but it is a very demanding instrument, and the learning curve is long and steep. I'm not a world class guitarist, but I've played a few solo concerts; after 8 years, even of relatively rapid progress, with my sitar teacher, I wouldn't attempt to play in front of friends, not to mention in public. Maybe after 20 years. Indian teachers (and Indians in general) are very welcoming to western musicians who undertake the instrument, though. Never a hint that "you can never do it because you're not Indian." I never got that from anyone. And yes, they are hard as hell on your fingers. My middle finger still has a numb spot on the tip after 20 years, although it doesn't interfere with my guitar, thank God. The callouses were grotesque -- people asked what I had done to my fingers. And if you think that's bad, try looking at a sarod player's fingers. Eeeeeyow.
|
|
|
|