Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Full Version)

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XXX -> Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 16:43:20)

Here is the falseta with the pulloffs:

If you click on his Name, youll see other falsetas. He recorded each (3) seperately.
This is the kind of stuff where i stare mouth open at the monitor and think: "WTF?!". Sick stuff IMO. Maybe other stuff is sicker. But this is already pretty sick. Lefthand completely sick, barres, chord changes, synch, argh...

On the other hand it gives hope: You dont need to have PacoPicado to play Paco stuff (ok at least not his newer stuff)



Jim Opfer -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 17:16:47)

I don't know if you were joking when you said it was sick, but I actually think that it IS SICK[&:]. I mean, what is this to do do with flamenco?
I don't see the point in people playing this stuff. Fine if it's original but why waste your time copying and trying to be like Paco?



XXX -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 17:40:35)

Jim, no problem if you dont like it. Taste are different. I think its awesome, and of course i would be the happiest person if i could play this kind of stuff. Its not about being Paco, dude. Its about music, about being able to express yourself [;)] I mean, of course every guitarrist makes *his* music. But i actually like those, who set the standards, not only in terms of composing, also technically, in terms of bringing forward FLAMENCO GUITAR as a STYLE to play guitar, "push the boundaries" or whatever.
I dont want to argue the same old boring topic "modern vs. traditional", nevertheless i have to say this IS flamenco to me. The fact that its original makes it even MORE likeable to me. I just wanted to share the performance of this awesome guitarrist, coz i thought there might be two or more people that like this stuff. Thats all.



Doitsujin -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 17:58:24)

Well,... we all copy. If you play "traditional" you just copy old players, too.. Why not copying Paco. Well.. in general I think if you reached a specific level of playing abilities, you should play your own stuff... But its entertaining stuff he uploaded. By the way,.. I dont like the newest Paco CD much. But who cares...



Arash -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 18:18:39)

i love it.
I think these falsetas and this kind of playing was the next step Paco did.
I dont like all tracks in cositas Buenas but these falsetas are amazing.

And i dont see any problem in copying (or trying to copy) the Maestros.
I mean, we are not all compositors . Are we ???
And i bet all good guitarists copied first Sabicas, Nino Ricardo, Paco etc. and THEN after many years of practicing , they started to compose themself.

So Jim , i dont understand your comment. [&:], Are you talking about copying generally or do you mean these more modern stuff has nothing to do with flamenco ??



Mark2 -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 18:19:31)

For anyone who thinks Paco has slowed down, this guy's vids shows the stuff paco is writing today is harder than hell to play-sure looks that way anyhow. This guy can freakin play!



Jim Opfer -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 18:34:40)

quote:

So Jim , i dont understand your comment. , Are you talking about copying generally or do you mean these more modern stuff has nothing to do with flamenco ??


Technically the guy in the video playing is amazing, I don't have a problem with that. It's just that I don't find this interesting. I don't get any satisfaction listening to someone playing complicated fast material just to demonstrate that he can do it and that's what I see in this video. I don't hear any flamenco, there's no feeling just speed.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising his ability just that I don't see the point in spending time learning this stuff played out of context.
I enjoy good modern flamenco guitar more than traditional playing but it's got to be genuine.



Arash -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 18:51:11)

LOL Deniz , did you see his imitation from Tomatito ?
This guy is really Sick !lol



XXX -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 18:58:01)

I dont care if hes showing off or not, or if some purists think its flamenco or not.



Mark2 -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 19:08:57)

I really like that paco material, and thought it might be easier to play than some of paco's older stuff with the monster picado, but uh, oh well!!!



Ron.M -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 19:39:20)

Hmm..
If it weren't for the heavy beats from time to time, I'd have thought it was just another guy fiddling around in a guitar store like the Electric players used to do on a Saturday afternoon in days of yore.
A big yawn....9 out of 10 for "yawniness"...Anyway I'm off to watch the Jack Nicholson movie on TV now..[:D]

cheers

Ron



koella -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 21:44:05)

God, if Paco played like this person, he would be a kind of , uhm, SPANISH INGWEE MALMSTEEN.

I know exactly what Jim means.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Mar. 31 2007 23:19:27)

Koella, have you heard friday night in San Francisco ?

Anyway we all have to learn and grow. Speed of musical development and speed of finger are too often out of sync. But if this guy is working on Paco then he is moving towards something good. Best of luck to him.



ToddK -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 4:12:10)

the legato's are sloppy, weak, and uneven. rhythm is bad.
my 2,
tk



koella -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 7:43:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
Koella, have you heard friday night in San Francisco ?


Yeds I did. That's another good example of non flamenco. Do you know how unhappy Paco was when this was going on ?



Matic -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 7:55:55)



His dog obviously likes his playing[;)]



XXX -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 9:56:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

the legato's are sloppy, weak, and uneven. rhythm is bad.


That was also my first impression. My first impression was, that it cant be, that someone is able pulling off this material. Having watch them 50 times ( [:D] ) im not so sure now. Tapping on it works for me most of the times. OK hes not Paco. But considering hes playing Paco without being Paco, it was good i think.



ToddK -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 11:17:40)

quote:

it was good i think.


I was sorta offsetting in my brief review, becuase in your original post,
you seem really amazed by this guy.

He's , as you say now, "very good". Sure.

He's not "totally sick".[:)]

I know totally sick when i see it. [:D]

I see many of us get so revved up by speedy manouvers, but not as often
by things like Rhythmic control, Great power, Great tone.
Fast legatos and picados have good wow factor, but eh....

I think this guy is"Totally sick"
In my opinion, what this guy is doing takes MANY more years, and much
more passion to accomplish than that other joker.

He's got drop dead perfect rhythm, excellent sound, and a
f'ing Ripping alzapua.

I dont know, thats just what i think about it.[:)]

Peace D!
TK



Arash -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 12:37:25)

The feeling and kind of playing in the Bulerias Video from Flavio which you mentioned, ist completely different to Antonia.

Flavios Bulerias is that kind Bulerias which has to be played with power and very percussive. And sure Flavio is very good and the Alzapuas are insane.

But Antonia has to played in a completely different way IMO.
Yes even a little bit "Sloppy"!
And this guy is very close to it.

BTW, i think this guy can even play better. Seams like he is not concentrating very much. And i bet if he does a more professional recording with good Micing, etc. , you would have a completely different impression from it.

But thats only what i think.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 13:14:20)

Yeah Koella he was forced to play like a kind of spanish Yngwe Malmsteen, no ?



XXX -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 13:56:53)

@Todd: I think Pacos composition is sick! But i dont think we should compare both performances. Bikhyal said it all: First totally different compositions, second totally different recording quality. I REALLY would like to see this guy performing a "standard" buleria, like Flavio. I would even bet, he can pull it off IMO (ok maybe we leave out the alzapuas?). I mean you cant play Paco stuff on a medium level if you dont play normal stuff on super level, no? But lets wait and see, maybe there will be other uploads from him to come.

Ps: Ahaha, for the YouTube trolls you are now "plectrum-wizard" who plays non-flamenco? I have to say, considering that its non-flamenco, it sounds pretty good! [:D]



Lipman -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 14:07:10)

Sorry Deniz, But I have to agree with Jim and Todd. I really can't see what you are getting so excited about. I don't like to be so negative, but it really isn't that good.
Not just the slightly sloppy technique, but disinterested way he is playing it.
So sorry, but: Next......

By the way, although Flavio's Alzapua is truly insane, I thought that his Falseta was very dull. Good sense of rhythm though.



Mark2 -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 15:38:12)

I agree with the guys who think that the guy is capable of playing much tighter. He didn't learn that paco stuff in a vacum. And he's playing very casually. What impressed me was that he figured it all out and has it in compas. And the way he does the breaks shows he's got the deal. I'm sure he can play other material with a lot more power. The guy Todd posted is very good too, but IMO his material is pretty simple in comparison although it is played very well. It was nice to SEE the fingering for those paco falsetas.



Ron.M -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 19:55:35)

I think this Forum is getting itself tighter and tighter into good Flamenco= greater speed and virtuosity on the guitar.
Which (IMO) it is obviously not.
Much wider than that.
Again, IMO.

cheers

Ron



Arash -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 20:18:09)

quote:

I think this Forum is getting itself tighter and tighter into good Flamenco= greater speed and virtuosity on the guitar.
Which (IMO) it is obviously not.


i dont think that me , Deniz , Doit , or others who like modern Flamenco think that good flamenco = higher speed, etc.
In fact, i dont like fast picado runs, just to give an example.

It is just different taste if you like more traditional stuff (by the way i like many traditional flamenco performances) or if you prefer more modern flamenco.

On the other hand, i cant understand why the so called "flamenco purist" are so radical in their judgment.
You cant say "this is not flamenco" just because you have another taste.



ToddK -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 20:28:13)

quote:

The guy Todd posted is very good too, but IMO his material is pretty simple in comparison although it is played very well


This was a big part of my point. If you think its simple, you dont get it.
You really really dont get it at all.

Oh well....



koella -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 20:42:36)

I'm with Todd here.
I'm no purist. But the PDL figure just showed how he got down the notes very well.
The guy that Todd posted plays flamenco.
I see no comparison between the two.
[&:]



Ricardo -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 20:51:02)

I think they are both darn good.

Ricardo



koella -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 20:59:24)

I don't think you mean that. You're over-mediating here right ?[8|]



XXX -> RE: Some guy playing ANTONIA (PdL) !!! (Apr. 1 2007 21:02:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bikhiyal

On the other hand, i cant understand why the so called "flamenco purist" are so radical in their judgment.
You cant say "this is not flamenco" just because you have another taste.


Exactly, thats what im trying to say all the time: OK, you CAN have different tastes. Thats NO problem at all. But when you begin, to DEFINE what "is flamenco" and whats "non-flamenco", ONLY because it suits your personal, subjective taste, then this is simply wrong. In other words: if it is ok to do that, then flamenco is everything i like it to be. Somebody who dont likes Sabicas, could say then he is not flamenco.

The point that you, Todd, mentioned was a different one though. We have to distinguish that: first there is this never ending and boring discussion of what is and what is not flamenco. As far as i understood you Todd, your main point was NOT that you claimed this is not flamenco. You say he plays it sloppy (in contrast to for example Jim, who said that he is technically amazing), and i would partially agree by saying: Ok, its not perfect.

But i think you are misunderstanding Bikhyal and me, coz nobody said that it needs many notes to be good flamenco. Yes, compared to the Paco stuff it is "simple". Yes, the execution (as performance) of Antonia wasnt perfect, but as a composition, as a piece to play, it is way harder than the other one.

Apart from that, i would not even dare to compare both performances because there are other factors, like recording quality, and the Antonia-guy being very unconcentrated, that effect it.

@koella: You said "I'm no purist. But the PDL figure just showed how he got down the notes very well."

I didnt understand that. I mean, what is wrong in being able to play many complex notes?

@Ricardo: Olé! SOS! [:D]



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