Lets be negative (Full Version)

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JasonM -> Lets be negative (Jan. 24 2007 21:30:23)

Do you have any pet peeves that involve flamenco? Things that agrravate the hell out of you but may not bother others? Or, mabey you have some particular dislikes or preferences involving the music or form.

Here is what I'm getting at. Some of mine for example:

I hate electric bass in flamenco. It just sounds cheesy. When I hear electric bass it reminds me of some 70's/disco/elevator music or something. It makes me think that Spanish flamencos have locked in on this erra-- electric bass, cocaine, mullets, and gold chains.


The chorus in cante records and even on some guitar records. It does provide a break for the listener, so he doesn't have to hear the same voice constantly. But use two GOOD singers on your album and exchange some letras. Enough with the damn chorus. Listen to Potito's new album or Duquende's latest album. If it isn't Fandangos or some cante jondo, its got a chorus. And it always sounds the same!. Everytime! Well duh.. its a refrain. No. I mean from song to song, album to album. It is just as formulaic as Pop music. They always have some generic husky sounding guy paired up with a female singer for the chorus part. Then at the end of the verse/s of the chorus, the star singer closes the chorus. I usually wind up overlooking the chorus or getting used to it.

Wait! theres more. I'm not done yet.

Trebbly pop sounding rumbas. Like nuevo sounding ones. Rumbas can sound cool. They don't have to be all trebble range. I am getting tired of trebbly sounding trarantos, and vicente amigo's wheeping trebbles. Ok. I think thats enough for now. I'm getting carried away here.



Mark2 -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 24 2007 21:50:55)

Oh man, your opening a can of worms. First I agree with you about the bass. Everyone's got to have fretless. I'd like to hear some regular bass instead of another Jaco wannbe. It's like they are all sheep. "I must have the farting fretless bass!"
I'm also with you on the choros-liked them at first, but it's been done.

The whole crazy thing about a guitarist being judged by people who don't play any instrument, ie dancers, singers, is something I have to admit I never warmed up to. I understand it, but as a guitarist/musician, I reject it. Much as I love flamenco cuadro, I stopped pusuing it because of politics and established traditions. It's simply not my cup of tea.
It's absurd some of the things various insecure individuals do to "out flamenco" others involved in flamenco. Fake accents, fake hair color, fake bios, fake ,fake, fake. Pretending they can't speak/understand english!!! And my personal favorite-fake ignorance of cultural things that most amercians know, but which real flamencos clearly don't.



Doitsujin -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 24 2007 22:28:28)

Hm.. Yes some things arent good in modern flameco. But I like the bass. It makes the composition rounder. Ok.. a good bass-player is important.

The other points I dont have an opinion. But Im happy that you told it! I thought I´m the only person here who dislike some aspects of flamenco. A bit different indetails, but ok .. everyone have an own opinion.



legrec -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 24 2007 22:32:40)

I agree with the electric bass (& cocaine) thing [:D] EXCEPT for Paco's bass player from Carlos Saura's Flamenco movie. Like with all "new" and "fusion" thing, the downpoint is that you have to be very very good to still fit in the picture with your new stuff. Most will be annoying and messing up with an already wonderful heritage.
But I feel this particular player is a real flamenco mate. He really add something to flamenco, which is not the case with most bass players around as far as I can hear. Perhaps it'll take time to have real flamenco electric bassists, and not jazz or whatever trained guy who makes a quick jump to flamenco during their career...

Second is the tendancy to over-hierarcherize the trinity of flamenco. For me dance, guitar, cante and percussion have the same importance (so it rejoins what Mark was saying).

My other negative point is the "malmsteen" syndrom : too many notes, and too fast. But I feel this "trend" is not as strong as a few years ago. Hopefully.

Last, it's the "big business" in flamenco guitar making. But I won't extend on this, I've already done a lot...



JasonM -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 24 2007 23:03:12)

Interesting stuff guys! Yes. This is a can of worms, but we are all entitled to our own opinions right? Its what makes the world go around. I'm not too familiar with the "fake insecure syndrome" in Flamenco, but I believe it exist.
Mabey its related to the I can "out metal you" syndrome of heavy metal. At least those guys were having fun.

The flamenco trinity heirarchy. Thats a good one Legrec. And yeah, I agree with you about Paco's bassist in Flamenco.

Its hard to be inovative and break the cycle of what works and what brings the bread to the table.



Florian -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 24 2007 23:14:36)

I have a pet hate for castanets, if i see any near me il just throw them out the closest window out oh the highest building in front of the biggest bus, at peak hour traffic.



Guest -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 0:00:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

I have a pet hate for castanets, if i see any near me il just throw them out the closest window out oh the highest building in front of the biggest bus, at peak hour traffic.

[:D][:)][:D][:D] same here +rap music and rappers [&:]



ToddK -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 0:29:30)

So,,, Paco's magical Columbiana with Carlos B. sounds like Disco Elevator music??

I think a hearing aid may cure some of your "negativity"[:)]



Kev -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 1:39:23)

hhhhmmmmm mine is people who critisis other musicians..... [8|]



carlos soto -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 2:49:47)

The fact that flamenco can only be pure if you are gypsy or at least that's what they say.

I think this may be true but only in the spanish gypsy tradition because the gypsys in my country don't know what a buleria is.
Still I wish I was born a gypsy in andalucia..or at least adopted

I hate bass too but if it's just supporting and not soloing can be nice, specially if it has frets. Not that I don't like fretless but with flamenco not so tasty.

Mostly I really dislike the fact that some spanish singer has a song named bulerias which is a terrible pop song and everytime a search google for bulerias I find that song's crappy lyrics, what a nightmare.



JasonM -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 3:27:12)

quote:

So,,, Paco's magical Columbiana with Carlos B. sounds like Disco Elevator music??

I think a hearing aid may cure some of your "negativity"


Yes Todd, I am making a generalization here. There are going to be exceptions. Its not like I toss a CD when I hear electric bass [:D] If Paco and Bela Fleck did a duet, i'd certainly turn my hearing aid up. But in general, I don't think the banjo would go well with flamenco.



duende -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 5:28:20)

i like good music

however i do not buy cd´s that contains this sort of tracklist.

Rumba
Tango
Tango
Buleria
Tango
etc
etc
etc

In my opinion thats a cd made to hit the Radio
I like older sounding Tangosd and Rumbas but not this Hit list thing

why cant they put a Solea or a siguiriya on??



duende -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 5:29:46)

and did i mention pure solo guitar bore me puts me to sleesspslzpzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzz



Ricardo -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 5:56:57)

quote:

Do you have any pet peeves that involve flamenco?


Hmm, nope. I like everything about flamenco. cocain can be especially nice depending on my mood, or how loud the electric bass and foot stomping is, or how much the aficionados think my favorite stuff is "not flamenco". It's all good to me. Peace brothers.



duende -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 6:03:11)

i like you ricardo[:D]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 7:37:39)

I love flamenco and I love it more every day.

In the start I disliked every thing. (farting basses, castanets, grumpy old singers, bitchy dancers. all)
Now I´m cured. I had an andalusian brainwash. It helped and is highly recommendable.

lelelelele por tangos lelelelele por tangos



koella -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 7:42:10)

Yeah Jason, makes you feel good to be negative now and then.[:D]
I agree with all of your points, especially the bass part
There are a few things that I could add, but I could step on someone's toes here. So I will not mention them. [;)]



Florian -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 8:06:55)

[:D] ok i knew i shouldnt have taken part in this lol i knew theres always gonna be someone who will say something that is gonna make the rest of us look like wingers.

yeah we could have all focused on the positives but then again that is not answering the half joke half serious question is beeing asked in this tread, the title is " Lets be negative"

There is something wrong with someone who dosent dislike anything ! lol so stop beeing such a politicaly correct goody tussues and answer the man [:D]

Ricardo i know u dislike it when a local guitarist is too pretious or paranoid to jam

and Anders I kno for a fact u wouldnt like, Rap in flamenco, Yoddeling, techno siren or people who dislike caravans.

so PLEASE ! dont pi*s on my leg and tell me its raining, your unwillingnes to be negative and criticise is very unsportsmen like.[:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 8:22:55)

quote:

If Paco and Bela Fleck did a duet, i'd certainly turn my hearing aid up. But in general, I don't think the banjo would go well with flamenco.


Now if the darn bass was not so loud, you might like this Jason:



Doitsujin -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 9:42:35)

Flamenco and pop.

Just check this out where Tomatito plays on a western-guitar for a spanish popsinger.



Arash -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 10:06:25)

quote:

Do you have any pet peeves that involve flamenco? Things that agrravate the hell out of you but may not bother others? Or, mabey you have some particular dislikes or preferences involving the music or form.


Sabicas Rock Encounter with Joe Beck!

[:'(][:'(]



Kate -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 18:18:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
But I like the bass. It makes the composition rounder. Ok.. a good bass-player is important.



I agree, there is a great bass player Joan Masana on Emilio Maya's 'Temple' although it also depends on context, palo etc.

My pet hate is flute, cant stand it, that and techno flamenco. We get sent a lot of this since a track of Emilio's was butchered and put on one of those flamenco chill out albums. I also hate it at my favourite flamenco hang out in Granada when they put on Morente's Omega, its just too depressing and changes the mood of the place immediately.

Kate



mrMagenta -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 20:51:46)

the garrotin hats! they make my hairs stand on end. i have no clue why.. oh and side-blown flutes. however i'd like to see if kaval or duduk-flutes would mesh better.

and the flamenco chair! the one that's everywhere, in all saura flicks etc. i want a pair of them chairs, but they are nowhere to be found in this here country. bleh



duende -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 20:55:13)

[:D][:D] i tryed to get these chairs as well but as you said

they are nowhere in this country to be found.



JasonM -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 21:17:36)

quote:

Now if the darn bass was not so loud, you might like this Jason:


Ok... that bass didn't have frets, I'd eat my own words... BUT that was not an electric bass[:)] Or at least it sounded like a stand up bass. I like stand up acoustic bass. I think I should have said that I don't like the electric fretless bass in my first post. It is that type of sound that drives me crazy. As far as an electric fretted bass goes, it depends. I wouldn't be against using one, but I have my own preferences as to how I would want to use it musically. Mainly a clean, supportive, drone sound mabey. I don't know.


Kate, I don't like the use of the flute either. I hardly ever hear it being used anyway. On a postive note, I DO like the violin in flamenco and that is also something that I rarely hear. My personal taste.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 23:12:22)

Have you ever heard that Ramon Montoya recording where he was accompanied by a Saxophone? The sax did a good job of emulating the cante and I enjoyed it. I have recently heard flamenco incorporating a sax and it was not good.



Gummy -> RE: Lets be negative (Jan. 25 2007 23:21:25)

Mostly I hate the attitude about one having to be Spanish or raised in Spain to play, appreciate, enjoy or comment about Flamenco. I hate how some people can sit back and blast someone elses music because it doesn't fit into their own definition of what Flamenco should be.(I am not talking of basic compas etc, I mean beyond that)



jrabbani -> RE: Lets be negative (Feb. 7 2007 23:27:07)

quote:

i tryed to get these chairs as well but as you said


you mean these chairs?
http://www.occasionalhell.com/infdevice/detail.php?recordID=Spanish%20Chair[;)]



RobJe -> RE: Lets be negative (Feb. 8 2007 10:26:45)

OK - but let's try to be positive.
Flamenco is a living art form and still developing.
A dead art form looks back to some kind of golden age and tries to preserve it. Anyone who tries anything different is frowned on. Eventually it is an art form appreciated by old folk - or it dies out.
A living art form allows experiment. Some of the experimemnts are c**p. These die out eventually. Other experiments take the art form forward and keep it alive. There is something for everyone to appreciate - old - young - traditionalists - modernists. Don't knock it!
Rob



mrMagenta -> RE: Lets be negative (Feb. 8 2007 11:15:39)

yeah! that's the chair. it would certainly help you dig in to the strings. oh, and get one for the singer as well, it will do wonders for the ayyy



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