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Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 17 2006 17:53:26)

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sonikete -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 17 2006 18:00:04)

Gypsies are sometimes the first to to do commercial things that has a very flamenco feel but wouldnt be considered "puro" or even flamenco by traditionalists. And some payos study traditional flamenco like Miguel Poveda, Carmen Linares or Jose Menese and become very good at it and can be very "puro" from a traditionalist point of view despite the fact that they are not gypsies. And there are many spanish gypsies that doesnt have a clue about flamenco.

Its a very complicated subject because people define "puro" very differently.

Vicente has said in interviews that he sometimes does things that are more about his personal expression than about flamenco, but he knows the difference and when he is accompanying and play traditional palos like solea or taranta, i think he can be very "puro" as well, at least in the way i define "puro".

And i have heard some critique of tomates fusion things as "i dont understand that" from at least one gitano guitarist.

The way i see it you have people who thinks that everything a gipsy does is "puro" no matter how commercial it is, because he is pure gipsy.

Then you have people who thinks that a straight honest personal expression pure from merly commercial ambitions, inside the flamenco form, is puro.

Some people thinks that if you manage to imitate manual torre perfectly and still manage to make it a personal interpretation then you are puro.

And some people thinks that just because its old it has got to be puro.

And there probably exists a million other definitions as well..

But for me i think it basically comes down to the artist, if the artist transmit deep emotions that moves me and has respect for the forms and the tradition then he/she/it is puro in my book, traditional or modern, gypsy or payo, simple or complex, for me is irrelevant.

But i dont really use that term at all because it can so easily be misunderstood.




Florian -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 17 2006 23:04:24)

but we not gonna fall for this trick kkrause1 and have some big 2 page debate about it :-)

and just go in circles and contradict ourselfs until at the end we not even sure where we stand anymore lol.




Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 6:07:42)

Flamenco puro very simply is "the real thing". Agujetas thinks of himself as the only "real flamenco singer" left alive, except for Terremoto jr, and only because he copies his father.

So yeah it is personal opinion, but I think there are some standards. It is easy to put on old traditional flamenco and say this is "puro". Who disagrees? Modern flamenco is where people have a problem or get into an arguement. In terms of the guitar, I personally draw the line at the rhythm guitar interpretation. They technical way the guitar is strummed reveals a lot to me. The difference between Ottmar and Diego del Gastor. There is a reason Paco de Lucia and Diego are flamenco puro, though they are different, yet Ottmar is not. Something important and technical missing. Likewise there was a post about a guy on youtube teaching flamenco. One guy I said was more "authentic", but to be painfully honest, my true feeling is that one guy was showing "the real flamenco", and the other guy a facsimile.

In terms of Vicente vs Tomatito, why both are modern, but one is "gitano", is because Vicente plays on top of the beat, and Tomatito plays on the back beat. [:D] Just kidding, but honestly it DOES have to do with the fine details of rhythmic expression. I have a vid of Camaron with Vicente, and the reasons for the distinction is obvious, though hard to describe in words. But Camaron still respected Vicente's different style enough to work with him. Sort of like Miles Davis using Bill Evens for "Kind of Blue", for all the tunes, except for the blues tune.[;)]

Ricardo




Exitao -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 8:02:40)

quote:

and have some big 2 page debate about it :-)

and just go in circles and contradict ourselfs until at the end we not even sure where we stand anymore lol.


Honestly, I think that the truth of the issue is far too delicate and subtle. If you are absolutely sure, then you can't possibly be right.

The concept of trying to stay faithful to a musical ideal, born of a fusion of cultures, and keep it 'pure' is a contradiction.
But people who love flamenco want flamenco to stay flamenco.

Arguing topics like this intelligently, respectfully and without a completely closed mind do a lot to help a person view the issues from different persectives. Any person of science or learning knows that greater understanding only results in more questions. Learning to understand is learning how to ask the right questions.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 18 2006 8:14:37)

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Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 9:16:27)

quote:

Tomatito in his early days was pretty puro compared to now.


Well listen to the last bulerias on "paseo de los Casaños", or "En Casa del Herrero". As puro as ever IMO. Likewise back in 1980, he was jamming with Paco's Sextet on Spanish TV. The concept of puro or who is or is not puro has not really changed much at all. Tomatito was always considered "modern" as far as I understand it.

And you did understand the Bill Evens story and how it relates to the "puro" topic right? Just in case, or for others reading, the guys who played with Miles were all, well, African American. Miles brought in Bill (white guy with an avant guarde impressionistic style), and everyone was like "why"? You know like, he has a weird feel, or he had a weird modern style, and he couldn't play the blues like it SHOULD be played. But Miles needed or wanted to use what Bill had to offer, "different", but still good, still real jazz to him. They made recording history.

Just like "payo" and "gitano" or "puro" and not so puro. Hard to describe in words w/out being offensive. I find a parallel there, between Vicente and Camaron. Looking for something "different", but still good, still "flamenco". But not the same feel as Tomatito. You can say both are good, or "puro" but just your tastes allow you to prefer one over the other. OR you can decide that perhaps your own concept of "puro" is more clear than poor Miles or Camaron. [8|]

Ricardo




sonikete -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 9:16:29)

Actually, i thought camaron looked a bit uneasy with vicente, i love camaron and i love vicente but somehow the chemistry was lacking between them judging from the look on camarons face. I know vicente loves camaron but i dont know if the feeling was mutual and camarons kids looked extremely bored as well in the background.

I think definitely there is a gitano style, and a lot has to do with the attack, sense of compas and the attitude behind that sort of playing. I love that style and i love the more payo style of playing as well. But for me its like the difference between levante style and fiesta style, both has their merits and i love both.

Tomatito has become more experimental and subtle but i dont think he is less gitano than before. I feel really akward using "puro", i prefer to use "flamenco".




Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 9:25:05)

quote:

Actually, i thought camaron looked a bit uneasy with vicente, i love camaron and i love vicente but somehow the chemistry was lacking between them


Well, that is how I felt too. And in the Miles Davis story, it was the same thing with Bill Evens. They ended up bringing back it the AfroAmerican guy to do the one blues tune. And Bill admited he never felt like he "fit in".

You could say, it is almost racist to distinguish the "gitano" sound from the "payo" sound, but there is something there, and every aficionado can recognize it once they know what they are listening for. Of course there are some surprise payos and vice versa. But if you play the blues like "a white guy", that is not considered a good thing.

Ricardo




sonikete -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 9:28:41)

I think the difference with blues is that it is black music but flamenco is more of country and blues, both white and black, so both ways have equally respected positions, even if the gitano way is regarded a bit higher.

But mixing them might not always become rock n roll.[:D]




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 18 2006 10:17:53)

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Gummy -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 12:43:35)

I don't think race has anything to do with music. It is all about the cultural background the person is exposed to for an ammount of time. Thinking that someone who is black has more rhythm than a white guy because he is black is ridiculous. Or that if someone is black they feel the blues more than anyone else.(culturally though, he may have been exposed to blues and will have an advantage because of that.) If a spaniard(by blood) is raised in USA by american parents, he will not feel flamenco more than any other american. If he hears flamenco and is inspired to surround himself with the culture, he will probably eventually feel it, but no more than any other american who does the same thing.




duende -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 13:03:00)

quote:

I don't think race has anything to do with music. It is all about the cultural background the person is exposed to for an ammount of time.


PDL is not gitano, but he was exposed to their culture.. so id say the he´s a very good example that race dosen´t matter at all. ONLY social/cultural environment.




sonikete -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 15:16:59)

I still say there is a gypsy style of playing since very few payos can play like that, paco is the only exception i can think of.




Miguel de Maria -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 15:26:40)

Remember that communication, even musical, is a two-way street. Maybe one reason people hear gypsies playing more "puro" is because they expect gypsies to play more "puro". Listening with their eyes, so to speak. You'd be hard pressed to know Dr. John wasn't black if you hadn't seen him, too. But I'm sorry, SRV and Clapton just do not do it for me in the blues.




duende -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 15:31:33)

quote:

I still say there is a gypsy style of playing since very few payos can play like that, paco is the only exception i can think of.


Paco was raised in an gitano environment. Gitanos are raised in an gitano environment so .....




sonikete -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 15:32:18)

White westeners are one of the few races in the world who can sometimes be totally rhythmically impaired, so its not a coincidence that payos choose the fandango forms over the bulerias.




duende -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 15:33:11)

where can i see the camarón and Vicente video?.. or where can i buy it?




sonikete -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 15:42:18)

I have it on vhs from tv, i dont know if its on dvd or you can buy it.




sonikete -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 16:20:44)

quote:



Paco was raised in an gitano environment. Gitanos are raised in an gitano environment so .....


Well he was raised in a flamenco environment at least, and sure, part of it is environment, part is about social disadvantages, but one part is cultural and about heritage.

I have no proof of this at all, this is just my opinion based on my personal experiences.

But i think its just as much a generalization saying all that races are the same as saying there are differences. This isnt about value, just as i think i can say that women and men are different without being machista.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 18 2006 16:57:25)

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sonikete -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 17:06:34)

What i was trying to say is that even if i see differences in expression, is that i like these differences. They both enrich the culture just as this whole jewish, arab, spanish, gitano mix flamenco came from.

If there were no differences in these cultures then flamenco wouldnt be what it is.




Ron.M -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 20:39:05)

Oh My God!
Lemme Outta Here!!!

This is gonna be a seven pager!

cheers

Ron



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px




Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 20:43:45)

quote:

If I say Chinese Look different than Mexicans it will be accepted. But If I say they emote differently all of a sudden people don't "buy into that Crappola."


Hmm.[&:] That was regarding some other topic, and you changed it. I don't argue that different people emote DIFFERENTLY, but what was being implied earlier was something about a certain girl COUDN'T or DIDN'T emote at all, and it may have had to do with her being asian. THAT was the crappola I don't buy, but sure folks emote in different ways. In fact that WAS my point. Her emoting was different and legit and it was not fair to say she did not have feeling in her playing.[8|]

quote:

I love Bill Evans And Miles but boohoohoo for Bill.

OK, Vicente is not so "puro" or "gitano" playing? Boohoo for Vicente too. [;)]

Ricardo




Exitao -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 22:03:11)

Don't confuse race with culture guys.

Culture is very different. I knew a Korean girl (she was teaching me Korean) and she had moved to Argentina when she was around 12. Bouncing through 3 languages was amazing.

In English she was an average tomboyish girl, in Spanish she was very Argentinian - coquettish in una manera orgullosa y casi descarada como solomente tienen las argentinas - and in Korean she was the perfect little Korean princess.

As I keep saying, flamenco is folk music. Folk are people, a culture, these people are the Andaluces. It's a lot to delve into another culture and 'get it' and it's hard to delve into another culture and be accepted and then there is the drive to protect that cultural treasure too.

It's a tough subject. Pardon my lapse in Spanish earlier, but there was no way I could express that accurately without sounding incredibly non-PC in English, while in Spanish there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. See? Cultures.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 18 2006 22:25:39)

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Exitao -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 18 2006 22:35:31)

Locally we have a Persian cantaor and his voice is good. I don't know about the other details, my ear is not refined enough, yet.

So you're saying that because I'm whitebread I have little chance of learning to sing with that voz raja?
[:(]




duende -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 19 2006 17:13:55)

any Arabe intressted in singing flamenco would do good i guess.
cante is very Arabic. Zyriab had a signing school in cordoba etc etc




sonikete -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Nov. 19 2006 17:56:44)

Discussions always seem to become polarized into opposing sides, when reality usually is more complex and there are exeptions to the generalizations we use to get ideas across.

But if you have a guitarist born into a family who has been guitarists, dancers and singers for generations and the flamenco culture has been a natural way to have fun, socialize and express grief or happiness. Then he has got to have both genetic and social factors that would help him to become a flamenco guitarist.

And i guess those families are usually more likely to be gitano than payo.




Kate -> RE: Flamenco Puro (Dec. 3 2006 17:40:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito
In Gypsy culture, If one of your parents(can't remember which one) is not gypsy, you are considered not puro.


In Calo culture if your father is a Gypsy so are you and if not you are not. Mind you I have never heard anyone refer to Estrella Morente as not puro

However in other Gypsy cultures, for example Sinti, it is the mother who has to be Gypsy for the child to be considered Gypsy. In Romanichal if one parent is a gadje ( non Gypsy) you are called Posh rat, ie half blood, it is likely that that is where the English word 'posh' comes from.

Kate




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