RE: A guitar for moi (Full Version)

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estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Sep. 22 2025 13:21:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets

Great photographs Stephen. I presume everything is edible, but what are they?



The bumpy ones are bitter melon, and there’s cucumber, Japanese eggplant and a watermelon- the other greens are cilantro



tijeretamiel -> RE: A guitar for moi (Sep. 22 2025 23:05:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets

Great photographs Stephen. I presume everything is edible, but what are they?



The bumpy ones are bitter melon, and there’s cucumber, Japanese eggplant and a watermelon- the other greens are cilantro


Fine work Stephen! I absolutely love the vegetables you have grown, in particular the bitter gourds/melons (we call them 'karela').

My family's from the subcontinent, I've grown up eating them and in London, UK in my town there's a greengrocer selling them about a 5 minute from my house. Eat them once or twice a week.

Good to see a blanca on the bench too.



silddx -> RE: A guitar for moi (Sep. 23 2025 12:32:24)

quote:

Great photographs Stephen. I presume everything is edible, but what are they?


I believe 'cilantro' is American for coriander.



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Sep. 23 2025 14:07:48)

Cilantro is Spanish for coriander, because America is a taco truck culture.



El Burdo -> RE: A guitar for moi (Sep. 23 2025 17:19:34)

My wife calls one of those (ゴーヤ) 'Angry Courgette'. You can guess which one!



Firefrets -> RE: A guitar for moi (Sep. 24 2025 15:14:16)

The dark one has some great colouring. Do you ever take inspiration from nature? There's a real vintage vibe there.

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54809187161_de64d8ccbb_o.png[/img]



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Sep. 25 2025 5:00:31)

I haven't thought about vegetables as influential in my guitar making color palette, or as natural motif material. I have thought about nature depicted in Roman mosaic as possible motif material. Usually fish, but most definitely Roman mosaic border motifs, they are already in classical guitar rosette designs. The guitar from Andalusia is very Catholic in iconography, which isn’t counterintuitive once you start looking. The guitar decoration doesn’t look arabesque at all, unless it’s a mid to late 20th century romantic superimposition.



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estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 1 2025 1:58:26)

In the restaurant business there’s a saying about success, location, location, location. Well I guess that’s part of it, but if the food is good, I’ll make special trip to a difficult to reach restaurant.

In guitar making there should be a saying: set up, set up, set up. Or like the famous James Carville quote from the 1994 presidential election-

“It’s the economy, stupid”

This quote is used a template for many situations for Americans to express consternation. If you lose a fish, it’s the knot tying, stupid. If someone is an alcoholic, it’s the vodka, stupid. If you’re a guitar maker…

Well you see where that goes.

I’ve been ignoring this guitar, I’ve not had as much time to play and I was disappointed in it. Last night I was making a new nut for another guitar visiting the shop and I noticed it was kind of loose in the slot between fingerboard and headstock plate so I took extreme care to fit the new nut in at tight as possible without it being ridiculously tight, you could hammer it in right, but who wants that? It’s got to be very snug, but still be thumb and forefinger removable by a being with opposable digits. When the new nut was carefully crafted and the strings were gradually bedded down to the right height to impart excellent ‘pulsacion’ ( let’s all go to the bar)
The guitar improved by 30%, the liveness of the guitar changed, the loose nut was killing the soul of the guitar and as soon as it had a terminal anchor point for the string at the top of the fingerboard, it found its true depth of voice. It’s because the nut transmits energy to the neck by providing a positive connection with no movement in the space between fingerboard and headstock. It needs to provide rock solid still point to the string, so the string is not losing power by vibrating the nut instead of the nut stopping the string.

After I worked on that guitar and was satisfied with the improvement, I thought, did I miss something on the Yakisugi guitar? I put in on the bench and got my optivisor magnifying unit on my head. Strong light and close inspection revealed a mistake I didn’t see the first time around with set up. Maybe I was tired that night.

I had made the slope of the top of the nut to steep in how it angled back. This prevented the treble ‘e’ from completely bedding down in the nut slot, the back end of the string exiting the nut was deceptively not touching the bottom of the slot. It looked correct, but by flexing the string with a fingernail at the rear side of the nut, there was play. A flaw in the system.

I made a new nut, and made sure the strings had a positive 100% contact in the slot and that the slot was more level across the nut, rather than having a slight backward slope towards the tuner rollers.

Result, brighter trebles.

Here’s an exaggerated drawing of a problem that was very subtle, but definitely an oversight in final set up.

Before I release a guitar to a customer I triple check the set up, I didn’t in the case of my own guitar because I was in a hurry to get on the next commitment.

It’s the set-up, stupid.





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estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 1 2025 7:42:42)

So here’s a little observation- the angle back on the top of the nut should not be a steeper angle than the angle of the string from the back of the nut to the string roller. ( some people leave the top of the nut flat too)

That’s essentially what caused a less bright treble E, the angle of the slot followed the angle of the top of the nut, therefore the string escaped off the back side of the nut without making full tension contact with nut slot. If you follow the explanation.

It’s a fairly noob mistake, but we all get tired sometimes. I have a rule in the shop about getting tired, never ever glue on the back of the guitar after 7pm- always try to glue in the back when fresh in the morning. Set up mistakes are easy to rectify however. No big deal, but I’m anxious to hear it today after the strings get back to tension for a day.



Firefrets -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 1 2025 9:46:42)

The red line represents the slot. Think of the slot like half a rainbow. The front edge flat, then curving off.

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54824497516_c3f26df1b5_o.jpg[/img]

Dan talks about this from around 1:30 seconds.

https://youtu.be/fruFJxmWe5I?t=89



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 1 2025 10:17:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets

The red line represents the slot. Think of the slot like half a rainbow. The front edge flat, then curving off.

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54824497516_c3f26df1b5_o.jpg[/img]

Dan talks about this from around 1:30 seconds.

https://youtu.be/fruFJxmWe5I?t=89



Dan is saying part of what I pointed out that the break angle of the strings to the tuner roller has to be greater than the backwards sloping of the slot. He shows a diagram that means the same thing as mine.
Where I disagree is how the string exits the slot, I think the string should have full contact along the whole slot on a nylon string guitar. You can hear that side of the argument from other people who teach.

I think there’s more than one opinion how the string should exit the slot, and there is a difference between the friction over the nut on a steel string acoustic guitar and a nylon classical guitar. The nylon string could sound false or have a buzz off the back of the nut, whereas the much higher tension on steel strings is less likely to buzz off the nut. When I worked for Stewart Port several years ago doing set up on Martin and Gibson guitars he did neck resets on he’d say the same thing, the string needs to contact the nut all the through the nut slot. You probably don’t know Stew, but he was trained in Matt Umanov’s shop in New York for seven years. That’s like saying you graduated from Harvard or Yale with a masters degree in Martin repair work. 😂

Opinions vary.



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 1 2025 10:33:05)

Pablo Requena talks about string vibration in the nut slot-
@6:45 then again @8:50 he makes another point. About matching the back angle of the nut with the back angle of the string.

He doesn’t specifically say the string should exit in full contact with the nut, but I think he infers this in the whole talk.





Mark2 -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 1 2025 18:02:21)

I’ve had a 1970 Ramirez 1a Blanca for close to 40 years. If I remove all the strings and turn the guitar upside down the nut will simply fall out. Am I understanding that the guitar could improve significantly by simply having a new tighter nut made? I think it’s a great sounding guitar as is.


quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

In the restaurant business there’s a saying about success, location, location, location. Well I guess that’s part of it, but if the food is good, I’ll make special trip to a difficult to reach restaurant.

In guitar making there should be a saying: set up, set up, set up. Or like the famous James Carville quote from the 1994 presidential election-

“It’s the economy, stupid”

This quote is used a template for many situations for Americans to express consternation. If you lose a fish, it’s the knot tying, stupid. If someone is an alcoholic, it’s the vodka, stupid. If you’re a guitar maker…

Well you see where that goes.

I’ve been ignoring this guitar, I’ve not had as much time to play and I was disappointed in it. Last night I was making a new nut for another guitar visiting the shop and I noticed it was kind of loose in the slot between fingerboard and headstock plate so I took extreme care to fit the new nut in at tight as possible without it being ridiculously tight, you could hammer it in right, but who wants that? It’s got to be very snug, but still be thumb and forefinger removable by a being with opposable digits. When the new nut was carefully crafted and the strings were gradually bedded down to the right height to impart excellent ‘pulsacion’ ( let’s all go to the bar)
The guitar improved by 30%, the liveness of the guitar changed, the loose nut was killing the soul of the guitar and as soon as it had a terminal anchor point for the string at the top of the fingerboard, it found its true depth of voice. It’s because the nut transmits energy to the neck by providing a positive connection with no movement in the space between fingerboard and headstock. It needs to provide rock solid still point to the string, so the string is not losing power by vibrating the nut instead of the nut stopping the string.

After I worked on that guitar and was satisfied with the improvement, I thought, did I miss something on the Yakisugi guitar? I put in on the bench and got my optivisor magnifying unit on my head. Strong light and close inspection revealed a mistake I didn’t see the first time around with set up. Maybe I was tired that night.

I had made the slope of the top of the nut to steep in how it angled back. This prevented the treble ‘e’ from completely bedding down in the nut slot, the back end of the string exiting the nut was deceptively not touching the bottom of the slot. It looked correct, but by flexing the string with a fingernail at the rear side of the nut, there was play. A flaw in the system.

I made a new nut, and made sure the strings had a positive 100% contact in the slot and that the slot was more level across the nut, rather than having a slight backward slope towards the tuner rollers.

Result, brighter trebles.

Here’s an exaggerated drawing of a problem that was very subtle, but definitely an oversight in final set up.

Before I release a guitar to a customer I triple check the set up, I didn’t in the case of my own guitar because I was in a hurry to get on the next commitment.

It’s the set-up, stupid.






Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 2 2025 0:04:05)

If the nut is carefully fit to be snug, yes there is potential for the sound to get a bit more ‘uummph’ to it. That goes for loose frets and saddles. Any lost energy at these key points can result in loss of sound.



Firefrets -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 2 2025 10:58:30)

There's a good debate to be had here, but unsure if it will detract from Stephen's build thread.

Let's stir the hornet's nest a little ....

For me, the nut does 'not' need to be a tight fit in the nut slot.

The function of the nut is primarily to set the string spacing.

If we were to look at a guitar that has a zero fret, you can then more easily understand the function of the nut.

A zero fret has 2 functions. The first is the correct location in terms of the scale length. The second is to determine the height of the string.

So, if we then look at a modern guitar nut, (it 'is' a zero fret combined with string spacing) it is reasonable to say that it combines 3 main functions.

1 - String spacing
2 - Location
3 - String height

The most important of these 3 functions is location.

So, in terms of transference of energy, it's a bit of a myth that the nut has to be 'tight' in a slot.

There is very little energy created at the nut. If we are to ask ourselves why, then we'd need to have a good understanding of the physics of a guitar string, in terms of wavelengths, nodes, antinodes and so on.

* The notion that a nut has to be tight against 3 surfaces is nonsensical.

As long as the nut is in the right location, we can completely remove the fingerboard out of the equation. The same can be said for any headstock plate etc.

Neither of these things are important to the functionality of a guitar nut other than to help keep it in a fixed position under the torque of the strings.

If we must make one surface 'flat' against another, then priority would be the bottom of the nut against the neck. This is as much to do with the stability of the nut under the string torque as it is to do with energy transference though.

If anything, having it 'tight' against 3 surfaces then poses the question of damping.

Again, we're getting in to the world of physics.

The same can be said of the saddle.

The walls of a saddle slot are there primarily to keep the saddle upright under the torque of the strings. Does the saddle need to be 'tight' against 3 surfaces?

Well, to be honest, the answer 'might' be a resounding 'no' as the violin, and banjo (just to name two very loud instruments) clearly prove.

The important thing is having the saddle (or bridge) flat against the surface it sits on. It would be difficult on a guitar to employ the same strategy as a banjo, and keep the saddle from tilting, although not impossible. You then have to ask if the saddle itself is capable of handling all of the energy at it's disposal, or whether the bridge gives it a helping hand.

Ask yourself if saddle slot walls help to collect energy, or hinder the production of energy through damping. Again, you'd need to be able to test it with physics, and as I'm not able to do so, I remain open minded about this. Maybe Trevor Gore or somebody with a similar understanding of physics could shed more light.



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 2 2025 11:10:12)

I don’t do hornets nests. Both arguments are relatively anecdotal. However some of the points you cite aren’t actually true from a mechanical standpoint. The observation that a string that’s unsupported at the front or back of the nut can buzz and create false sounding in the fretted section of the string, or the after length leaving the nut to the roller, are facts. And each condition is remedied by full contact with the nut, from a mechanical viewpoint. Physics isn’t needed.



Firefrets -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 2 2025 11:11:29)

Which points aren't true?



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 8 2025 1:47:40)

I’m entertaining the idea of replacing the top on this guitar rather than waiting until I have a window to build a new one. Top replacement is a two day task.

Talk me off this ledge.



Fawkes -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 8 2025 6:50:16)

You can still do it in a month or in two years if you aren't sure today.

But the interesting question is: what is your subconscious trying to tell you? It might be wrong (mine is, a disturbingly large percentage of the time), or it might be onto something that matters, which is what it's for.



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 8 2025 13:15:40)

I came back through the window and safely sanded around the rim whilst the thing was tuned. Something was off on the way I did the graduation of the top, unfamiliar wood I guess. It’s a cheap trick, but it enabled bridge to be free and opened up the trebles. The mid range got a little spookier too. More hollow sounding. Overall it became much more flamenco, a growlier bite.

I’m ok with all this. It’s going to stand.

Unconsciously I selected cedar because a cedar guitar was stolen from me in 1992. Consciously I picked cedar because I’m a narcissist and I wanted something nobody else has. 😆

Seriously this guitar taught me a few unplanned lessons. I did have a cedar guitar I bought from Paco de Malaga around 1990. It was stolen when I lived on 16th and Dolores in San Francisco in June 1992. I was very sad, it hurt. Ever since then when I’ve tried to make a guitar for myself I’ve chosen a cedar top, and this came up when I made this guitar, I finally let it go that that guitar was taken so long ago. By always picking cedar in the three or four times I’ve tried to make a guitar for me, I think unconsciously I was trying to replace that cedar guitar which I got from Paco.

Now because I’ve had a difficult time with this one, wrestling with it, I thought why is it so difficult and what’s trying tell me. Why am I always choosing cedar, why not spruce? Then in came to me, the cedar guitar I lost, I said to myself “You’re trying to get it back.” When I realized that it was a litte relief. Next time I’ll make myself a spruce guitar. I reckon.





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orsonw -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 8 2025 16:55:51)

Pleased to hear you are getting the guitar sounding more to your liking.

It looks beautiful in that last photograph. I love the tie block inlay, the dark lines in the top, the rosette, and how they work together. Please can we have a closer photograph of the rosette?



Arash -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 8 2025 23:05:52)

I too have a "loose" nut too, which always falls off (damn, this sounds weird [:D]) , whenever I change strings.

Which made me think, wouldn't it be best to just make two nuts, one a bit loose and one more secure fit, and just do a test on same guitar and see if one can hear or feel any difference? Despite physics and mechanics and whatnot,, at the end of the day, that would be all that counts from a players point of view I guess.
I was never sure if I should change the nut or not.
I have the same at the bridge bone saddle btw, it too is kinda loose



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 9 2025 15:17:24)

Circles

I’ll make another sound demo soon, but the high end came up a lot with sanding the rim. I usually settle all that before I braced the top, but this one needed drastic measures.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



estebanana -> RE: A guitar for moi (Oct. 9 2025 15:21:56)

It’s been my observation for a long time that loose saddles aren’t as efficient as a well fitted saddle that has a reasonable fiction fit in the slot. It varies from guitar to guitar, but friction fit is better. In some cases I’ve a new ex saddle will make a noticeable change for the better.



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