RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Full Version)

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Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (May 31 2025 21:27:32)

So I've done some work on the seam, and pushed a little Garnet shellac in to the disturbed area. I'm not wiping gently. I'm actually rubbing through the stick somewhat. It just protects things from oxidising until I do the final cosmetics.

I had to do a bit of carving around the cap to compensate for the extra width. I did start with a chisel but decided to use my Dremmel, before detailing. The rest of the guitar was done by hand, using blades, sanding, and a bit of patience.

I haven't cleaned the guitar yet, quite deliberately. Once the work is done, then that will get done, before some French polish where needed.

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Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 1 2025 14:11:01)

I start the day adding a little filler to the headstock, again just wood dust and glue, and can leave it alone while I do other jobs.

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I decide to get the fretwork out of the way. I hate fretwork on antique guitars. It's never ever straight forward, and a pain in the backside, but has to be done.

It's a much nicer job when you can cut your own slots, and the frets will sit nice and tight. On an old guitar, especially one this old, it may have been fretted a few times already.

You end up having to press the frets in and glue them at the same time. I don't have a fret press yet, so I often use a piece of wood with a slight groove, accumulated from rubbing the block over the frets. It helps to get them to sit down, but you always end up chasing your tail a little. It's just the nature of the job.

Ignore all the Youtubers who portray flawless simple fret jobs. They live in a fantasy world. In the real world you have to work a bit harder with vintage guitars.

I use the edge of a square file and run it across the slot. The fingerboard is old and dry, so it will just help the next guy to remove the frets without lots of chipping.

I don't always, but on this occasion I used a Dremmel to take down the fret ends, to make it easier for my files. I cut the flat edge, and will then do the angled edge once I've levelled and happy.

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Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 1 2025 15:04:25)

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This is what you face in the world of restoration. Again, ignore those who try to make it all look like it always goes smoothly, for their ego. Rarely does anything go smoothly. That's why it's fun ... kind of.

Likely the tapping of the frets has sent a shockwave to a weak spot.

If something is going to fail, the best time for it to happen is when I've got the guitar in pieces. The next best time for something to fail, is while the guitar is still being repaired and prepped. The worst time is when it's in the hands of the new owner, but we'll be doing our best to limit that.

There isn't anything that can go wrong that scares me. It's all part and parcel of being a restorer. You just deal with it, and fix it. She's just dry. Ideally I need to stick her in a bag for a few weeks with some water.

Guitars are just wood glued together. It can be frustrating, but you get used to it. It's not like you can call somebody for help - that person is you! [sm=lol.gif]

If it had happened when the back was off, I'd have driven a dowel through everything, (I may still) but for now I'm able to catch it quickly, so glue and clamp will do until I reassess tomorrow.

I like to offer genuine insight. Not an ego trip, so this is the real world of repair - not the BS world of Youtube.

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silddx -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 5 2025 20:50:10)

Is that a strange place to fracture? Across the grain? What may have caused that? Is the wood extremely dry?

Lot of questions :)



Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 6 2025 9:24:37)

quote:



Is that a strange place to fracture? Across the grain? What may have caused that? Is the wood extremely dry?

Lot of questions :)


No, it's quite common for heels to crack, but all taken care of now. It's the first time one has opened on me while fretting, but I've repaired many over the years.

As to the cause, who knows. She's lived a long life. The guitar is dry, yes, but she's in good hands.

You can never guarantee the stability of a 100 year old guitar, but once you get on top of things it's just a case of respecting the instrument in terms of moving forward, and dealing with any future repairs in the normal way.

You're welcome to ask questions.

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silddx -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 6 2025 10:14:44)

Thanks man.



Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 6 2025 11:42:56)

Here's a different heel break on a guitar I recently restored. This one was much more complicated, as the crack had gone in to the block and sides, but the hardest part was dealing with a previous repairer's efforts.

Yet another enormous restoration, with loads of interesting repairs, and solutions, but it can take a long time to properly document a big restoration, so I'm limited as to how many I can share. Probably 60% of the jobs I do are massive. They're great for the learning curve, as you only learn repair by doing it.

Even on this restoration, I'm only scratching the surface with what I show. You could write an individual book for each guitar built, or restored, as a lot to cover.

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estebanana -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 6 2025 17:11:17)

In photo #4 I can’t see the glued crack - explain



Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 6 2025 20:43:51)

The first 3 pictures show the extent of the damage, and the last 2 pictures show the same areas after I'd finished restoring the guitar. She's pretty.

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Ricardo -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 9 2025 17:05:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

In photo #4 I can’t see the glued crack - explain


I can see it. It is the apex (heel/sides) of the 4th diagonal line below the neck/heel join. You can follow it left to right from there...almost invisible.



Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 9 2025 21:08:28)

If you mean the side cracks, they're gone. I can't see them at all under my light. I get lucky sometimes. :o)


You can right click and open in a new tab, and zoom right in.

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Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 19 2025 13:20:09)

Ok, lots of other work done which I'll catch up with in due course, but had a bit of time this morning so managed to get the new pegs fitted.

I'm kind of getting there with pegs now. I've done a few sets, and the penny is starting to drop per se. I ordered a few extra spare just in case, but managed to get 6 over the line quite well.

I went with viola pegs. They came in 10mm and 8.5mm which have worked really well. I made a little jig to hold the pegs for various jobs. The existing holes are a little worn around the edges, but the actual holes themselves have had a nice clean ream. I allowed the pegs to travel further, in order to make use of the width.

Once I was happy, I trimmed the ends, and tidied them up using some old snooker tip tools from my mis-spent youth. I actually just hold the peg in my hand rather than the vice, but easier to photo in the vice.

I've left around 10mm protruding, (this will eventually raise slightly) and placed a hole around 6mm from the headstock. Then used a rat tail file across the hole. Lots of peg dope (some use pencil lead) but everything now feels pretty good.

I don't like pegs that much as a player, but that's mostly because there's an art to using them properly. I find my wrist aches if I have to tune up a lot on other guitars with pegs I have, but they do look great though.

Normally in the past I've gone for Swiss style, but these are French style. Setting up the shaver took a bit of figuring out, but once I'd finished with a test peg I felt like everything was going well. The shaver on the left is a cello peg shaver, so too big, but the other is very versatile. I found If I concentrated on 2/3rds of the peg, and fitted them well, then after scoring around the collar, I could carefully trim all the way up simply by adjusting tension on the shaver, followed by light sanding.

They'll get a final detailing before the strings go on, but very happy with how the peg session went today.

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estebanana -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 19 2025 14:44:12)

Alright alright alright update



Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 19 2025 15:46:33)

Should I stop? Where I live that's what folk say when they're irritated lol. It might mean something else in Japan.



silddx -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 19 2025 17:33:01)

Please don't stop.

I'm really enjoying this thread!



Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 28 2025 11:48:50)

Let's talk a bit more about the bridge...

I'd deliberately left deciding what to do with the bridge until I'd fully constructed the guitar. The problem is until I have the guitar under full string tension, I really can't test anything properly, and this is very different than setting the neck angle in a solera, and having a bone saddle that I can adjust.

I've a guitar that needs reassembling, tuning pegs fitting, and she's going to settle however she settles once under tension. Rebuilding and replacing the back is going to change things slightly in terms of angle, and so I had to use a degree of guess work in the reassembly. I have no room for adjustment at the saddle, so I needed to put everything in a good ball park.

I'd decided that the best way to proceed was to simply re-build the guitar, and then assess. If I touched the bridge too soon, I could end up having a major headache, if my judgement was off, so patience was needed. However, I also didn't want to lose a few weeks of down time choosing and waiting for pegs to arrive etc.

After much deliberation, I decided to introduce a fret saddle.
In order to make this work, I'd need to remove the bridge for a second time, remove the frets, and exaggerate the neck angle slightly. This would allow me to reduce the height of the bridge, which was 10mm, and if the guitar Gods were on my side, I'd be able to make the guitar intonate very well.

It was a big decision, as in front of me, I had a guitar that played absolutely perfectly, with low flamenco action, as I'd absolutely nailed it all with a view to keeping the bridge original. Guitars were played differently 100 years ago, and super low flamenco bridges weren't really a thing back then, or at least the ones I've studied weren't. But the way we play now has changed, so I wanted to find a happy compromise.

BAD STRINGS ...
I'd done an awful lot of testing prior, to see if I could actually get this to work, but when I tested everything for a final time before committing, I noticed the G string was ridiculously out. "This can't be right" I told myself. I decided to stop, take a step back, and trust myself to come up with a solution the following day. I remembered having difficulties intonating an electric guitar some 20 years ago, when it struck me that perhaps the string might be faulty ... and sure enough, it was!

I replaced the string, and the whole guitar intonated perfectly. Finally the guitar had stopped fighting me, and like trying to tame a wild horse, she had accepted me. I constantly remind a guitar that I need their help if I'm going to be able to save them. I'll sometimes thank them, or even scold them. You might think I'm crazy, but I do ha ha. I'll bet if builders are honest they often talk to their guitars too.

I'm in a luthier forum, so don't need to elaborate on finding the right position for the bridge etc, or changing the neck angle etc. This isn't teaching, just sharing work, and builders already know their stuff, or at least enough. Sure, I had to carve the bridge a little, but I think it was the right decision. Now, the top of the saddle fret on the treble side is 8.5mm, and so she's offering just under 9mm at the bridge which is absolutely fantastic, as well within flamenco spec.

Once again, I had to ensure I didn't mess up, as there is no room for error on the action, but I'm delighted to say that when the guitar was finished, I'd made some great calculations, and she is 3mm at the bass and 2.5mm at the treble, and intonates wonderfully. You wouldn't think it's possible without having different intonation points, but it is.

He who dares etc.

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Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 28 2025 12:07:03)

After cutting a nut, I don't want to put a brand new shiny white nut on a 100 year old guitar, so I age the bone a little in order to help keep things subtle.

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Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 28 2025 13:23:44)

Here are a few before and after shots of certain jobs. I'm not looking to make anything look new, so any repairs have to be done in a rustic way, in order to simulate the rustic appearance of the guitar. A tiny chip out of the fingerboard will likely be left as is, as actually helps to preserve character, even if I could fill it.

The colour match on the inlay has gone fairly well. I've managed to extend the rosette purfling lines in to the inlay, and looks quite good. It's important to realise these pictures are magnified. You'll not really notice it unless you go looking for it.

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You can look back at the rosette repair, but here's what it looks like now. Again, I needed to maintain character, but repair it thoroughly, which is actually a lot more work than if I'd filled everything and sanded, but it's worth the extra effort.

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The finish on the guitar was in bad shape, and she desperately needed a bit of help if she's to withstand the elements for the next hundred years.

I'm encapsulating the character of the guitar. I have zero interest in trying to make everything look perfect. It's important not to refinish a guitar like this. Add polish where needed, and just enough to add a bit of lustre, but I want her to look 100 years old when finished, and be protected from the elements moving forward. I don't have time to elaborate on the finish work, as that's something that is constantly getting done throughout the entire restoration, and no doubt I'll go around her again being a fuss pot, but happy to answer any questions.

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Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 28 2025 13:25:36)

The whole guitar has been cleaned, and received varying degrees of polish, but every bit of character has been left intact. In a certain light, you can just about make out finish repair but I can't do miracles, and unless you knit pick it's not obvious, and in a few years when everything starts to oxidise it will all be invisible. Certainly if I passed you the guitar it wouldn't cross your mind, so I'm happy how she turned out.

She's still a bit too soft out of the eggshell to be fully playing her, but she sounds like a flamenco guitar, what can I say. Action is 3mm bass, 2.5mm treble, just under 9 at the bridge, and is light as a feather.

I'll probably let her sit for a month or so then put her up for sale somewhere, so she could be yours ha ha. :P

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Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 28 2025 13:28:36)

PS, I'm not a flamenco player, so would love to hear how you guys tie your strings (I've added a twist before winding) and also your approach to using the pegs properly. Detail appreciated - educate me, I deserve it for sharing this lol. Also, what about lubrication moving forward. Do you think keep adding dope for a while as things compress? [:)]



silddx -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 28 2025 15:31:21)

Awesome! Really lovely to see and read your process, and the guitar looks delightful!

Generally there's no need to tie the bass strings to the pegs, just thread through the hole and tune up. I have not always tied the trebles either, but I have had the occasional slip so I do put a simple knot there now.

Thank you so much for sharing.



rombsix -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 28 2025 19:02:57)

Incredible work, man!



estebanana -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 30 2025 16:25:58)

I like the last long post on this where you lay down your thoughts on the bridge and then move into the bargaining with the guitar. There’s is always some bargaining because no matter how much we know the guitar always poised to humble us and teach us more. Yes I bargain with the guitar, and I walk away quietly when it’s not working, I keep confidence that there is a solution to any construction or repair situation that goes south. You just have to stay cool and be dispassionately engaged with the guitar. When I get in trouble occasionally I just surrender to my guitar making ancestors and wait until I am ready to receive the antidote to my screw up. The ancestors always are kind and tell you a secret.



Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jun. 30 2025 20:38:36)

Guitars are wonderful things. I think they have a spirit, especially really old guitars. You can imagine what they've lived through, and the stories they could tell.

When you build a great guitar, there's something magical, right? It's not a coffee table. It is something much more special. I have a habit of referring to them as 'she' but rarely 'he' for some reason.

Thanks above for the kind comments x



estebanana -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jul. 1 2025 1:04:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets

Guitars are wonderful things. I think they have a spirit, especially really old guitars. You can imagine what they've lived through, and the stories they could tell.

When you build a great guitar, there's something magical, right? It's not a coffee table. It is something much more special. I have a habit of referring to them as 'she' but rarely 'he' for some reason.

Thanks above for the kind comments x



My guitars are definitely not coffee tables, but more like the classic kayak paddle



Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jul. 1 2025 7:45:02)

Paddle guitars are actually a thing.
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets

Guitars are wonderful things. I think they have a spirit, especially really old guitars. You can imagine what they've lived through, and the stories they could tell.

When you build a great guitar, there's something magical, right? It's not a coffee table. It is something much more special. I have a habit of referring to them as 'she' but rarely 'he' for some reason.

Thanks above for the kind comments x



My guitars are definitely not coffee tables, but more like the classic kayak paddle


Paddle guitars are actually a thing. They might not protect you from a Hippo, or a Gator, but you can entertain them with some dinner music at least.



RobF -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jul. 1 2025 8:03:49)

That came out real nice! Thanks for taking the time to prepare and then post this pictorial. Really enjoyable read!



ernandez R -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jul. 1 2025 16:56:02)

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Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jul. 4 2025 14:37:36)

Ha ha, look at all the trouble you caused. I hope you're feeling a bit better mate x



Firefrets -> RE: Restoration of a 100 year old Flamenco (Jul. 4 2025 14:39:46)

Thanks Rob x



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