yourwhathurts69 -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 6:41:24)
quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
I do not recommend this shop. I've had experience dealing with them.
I have also previously owned a couple of Condes that I sold on, and saw eventually end up with this dealer. They did not describe them accurately, no mention of the significant repairs and asked double the price of other dealers. Another example: they currently have a Conde with a replaced top, asking £7.5K and no mention of the replaced top instead just hyperbole and 'Faustino', 'Paco de Lucia' etc... Solera previously sold this guitar for £2K.
I saw the same thing with an Arcangel. The top had been replaced, but there was absolutely no mention of it in their description. A previous owner of the guitar called them out on Facebook, but they still didn't disclose it in their description.
orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 9:30:06)
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strange hes got the repairs disclaimed on the ones that i saw, rather no to pick those for the price.
did the guy purchased that Conde not knowing what it was?
I've seen guitars listed that I have previously owned. Guitars that I know, where they have not disclosed significant repairs that may not be obvious to someone who's not that experienced. I've bought a guitar from them which turned out to have repairs they did not disclose or know about, even though repairs are fairly obvious with cleats.
They could well have bought the Conde with the replaced top without knowing it themselves. It seems they are not that knowledgeable about flamenco guitars.
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 9:33:58)
auch..... thats lame
orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 9:36:25)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
I do not recommend this shop. I've had experience dealing with them.
I have also previously owned a couple of Condes that I sold on, and saw eventually end up with this dealer. They did not describe them accurately, no mention of the significant repairs and asked double the price of other dealers. Another example: they currently have a Conde with a replaced top, asking £7.5K and no mention of the replaced top instead just hyperbole and 'Faustino', 'Paco de Lucia' etc... Solera previously sold this guitar for £2K.
I saw the same thing with an Arcangel. The top had been replaced, but there was absolutely no mention of it in their description. A previous owner of the guitar called them out on Facebook, but they still didn't disclose it in their description.
I also informed them via reverb about the replaced top on the Conde some months ago. I'm not sure if they got the message, but in any case their listing still does not disclose it.
orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 9:46:17)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
auch..... thats lame
In the case of the guitar I bought it was ok because due to their ignorance they under valued the guitar not understanding what it was. And I don't mind a well repaired guitar, just would prefer to know before buying so I can evaluate the repairs/damage.
Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 10:07:42)
That's the evident problem of that shop. Solera is much more reliable in the description of the guitars but I don't recommend them either. Nowadays they mostly sell new guitars or high level 2nd hand guitars, but there was a time when they used to buy and sell mostly mid price 2nd hand guitars and I didn't like at all their way to do business. I know it for facts.
Coming back to the topic: the market of used Conde is a jungle. The main cause is the fragmentation of their output from 1988 on and the inconsistent quality of the Gravina and Atocha shops since.
With Conde you have to follow these basic rules. 1 Their shop in Calle Gravina is the top shop till 1988. Even among the guitars made in Calle Gravina there's a divergence between: a. Guitars from 59 - 69 (roughly): old school Conde b. guitars from 69 - 79: golden period (at least for the market) c. guitars from 79 - 88. very good but different.
2. From 89 the quality of the guitars labeled Gravina and Atocha dropped down and became inconsistent. The 3 shops became independent and Felipe Conde (in fact the main manager in the eighties) kept the best part of all: Juliana Conde had to outsource the whole production to 2 companies (which before served for varnishing and studio guitars) and some orders to 2 guitar makers. Conde Felipe V became the best option: quality guitars, particularly those before 2000. Few good guitars were made for Atocha and Gravina (those made by the actual guitar makers).
3. From 2011 you have 3 different shops: Felipe Conde, Mariano Conde and Conde Atocha. After the shop in Gravina closed down, Conde Atocha raised the output quality with a laboratory in the outskirt of Madrid led by Javier Castano. Still they outsourced part of the guitars.
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 10:37:02)
this is a very nice and non sense case study (The Conde Oddssey)
people crave to buy something that has red flags and its sketchy , and the odd part is they know it....
i cant understand this , and its a lot of fun. Why to have of all these trouble hassle , or even a probabilty of it , instead of buy a 100% legit guitar of other maker , since theres dozens...
hxwhf72752003 -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 10:46:02)
My uncle's father-in-law liked to eat a kind of grass carp with a lot of bones, but he still took the trouble to eat it. Although he also likes to eat other delicacies, fish is his favorite food. I think this phenomenon has to do with people's personal preferences, but also with the important role that the Conde family has played in the history of flamenco guitars.[:D]
orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 10:54:29)
quote:
cant understand this , and its a lot of fun. Why to have of all these trouble hassle , or even a probabilty of it , instead of buy a 100% legit guitar of other maker , since theres dozens...
Because a good Conde is something special and particular. If you know what you're doing it's not actually that hard to find one. As you say for someone like yourself that's just learning about flamenco guitars then be careful or avoid it.
And of course there are great luthier made guitars where you can go to the workshop, discuss the whole process/specifications, see the guitar being built with photo updates etc.. I've had this experience too. A Conde is not a luthier artisan made guitar, but still for me a good Conde is something special.
Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 11:28:54)
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Why to have of all these trouble hassle , or even a probabilty of it , instead of buy a 100% legit guitar of other maker , since theres dozens...
Totally agree with OrsonW. If everybody could build a guitar as good as a Reyes ,a good Conde, a Gerundino, an Fleta (name it) etc. there wouldn’t be any argument. Then, a guitar is something very personal, and t’s also about what you are looking after really: I don’t know any guitar playing like a good Gerundino like an actual Gerundino. If you are after a good flamenco guitar, different from a Gerundino, you have plenty of choices. Apply it to Fender, Gibson etc.
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 11:48:15)
any good one it is... and sometimes they are good , but setup isnt for us.. , people often mix those concepts, for example the guitar is hard so it sucks... but they forget for whom was the guitar made for . The guitar isnt loud , so it sucks , the guitar is too mellow so it sucks. This is very personal, but if we talk about Stock ones that werent made with some personal specifications, thats diferent.
Sorry but that can be a falacie , are we talkin about stock ones?
So you go to a top maker , old woods , all the personal specs that you enjoy , and he does one spot one , but the good ones are like old conde? that were made for other persons or doesnt have your specs ?
orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 12:21:45)
quote:
Solera is much more reliable in the description of the guitars but I don't recommend them either. Nowadays they mostly sell new guitars or high level 2nd hand guitars, but there was a time when they used to buy and sell mostly mid price 2nd hand guitars and I didn't like at all their way to do business. I know it for facts.
I have had very good experience as a buyer and seller with Solera. I think they do good work in general promoting flamenco, and the luthiers they rate. Not everyone will share their opinions on this but in my experience Solera and Jordi have integrity and honesty. But I think maybe in general it would not be so good to sell a guitar to them because they have to make a profit? Better to sell privately.
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 12:54:01)
i understand regarding the "investment" point of view , its like anything really , some goods from some makers dont have a lot of price depreciation new and specialy 2nd hand. I allready made this in the past , i bought a very reputable brand one of the top 3/4 keeping in mind that i would sell it in short/medium time and i wouldnt loose money selling it (or few) , in fact i gain some...(it wasnt that goal) It was nice , but not the best i ever had , in fact the best i had was from a local guy that i know well , i told him what i wanted (and i have a lot of knowledge about that) he gave his view and made a very nice deal... , it was perfect for what i wanted and it was the best that i enjoy , pure performance . Later i had to sell it , and wasnt easy... it was in very good condition and lost some money. Who bought made a good deal. So... the other one that wasnt better and it was older i gain money selling it.....just because of the brand , the other one that was much better in all aspects and newer i lost some...[:D][:D][:D]
im not talkin about guitar , but thats the same , because people are the same in many things.
Ricardo -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 13:27:06)
quote:
Apply it to Fender, Gibson etc
As a child of the 80s, I am all about the “super Strat”, which is basically a modified Strat body, or a Strat body/neck with Gibson style humbucking pick ups, THE END. From there it is psychologically disturbing to me that even I have this deep seated fetishistic obsession/love or emotion toward these cheap planks of wood (ash, maple, alder, etc., tens of dollars) splattered with car paint. It is kind of hilarious.
At least we can say the Spanish guitars, and especially the flamenco guitars, have sonic character in our bedrooms and juergas where it matters. [:D]
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 13:35:45)
Vester.... and some alike were very nice , specialy to mod
Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 14:34:43)
With regards of Solera, I don’t mean they are a scam or fraudulent or even dishonest. And yet, more than once they got certain 2nd hand guitars I knew or I was dealing and I know how much they charged for and how they advertised them. In 2 occasions the guitars had some issues they fixed and I found the description wasn’t clear enough about it. Now they are just too expensive.
With regards to certain guitars, they got to assume a clear identity and set a standard: Reyes, Conde etc.
A Strat is a strat and her drawbacks are considered characteristics of a strat. BTW I was a Hamer and Charvel guy more than a Strat guy.
Filip -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 28 2025 20:22:44)
Thank you all for replying to my question.
I thought that all Condes would have media luna but I was wrong, good to know. It's also good to know some details about that particular guitar shop I linked.
To clarify, I am not looking to buy a guitar at this moment. But I am going to do that in the future, hopefully near future, so I am just looking around and learning about the market. So all this is helpful to me. I have a guitar I am very happy with (I built it myself with Stephen Hill), and though I would like to build another one I would also like to get one of the great old school builders' guitars.
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 3 2025 11:27:51)
theres a Gerundino 1987 like new for sale for 5490 euros Cedro and Palo Santo with pegheads well it must been gone allready
Ricardo -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 5 2025 13:53:03)
quote:
a. Guitars from 59 - 69 (roughly): old school Conde b. guitars from 69 - 79: golden period (at least for the market) c. guitars from 79 - 88. very good but different.
Why not include the 40’s and 50’? Iconic Niño Ricardo sound. I played a 53 that was a bit weak, and turned down the offer to buy it, it had extensive repairs. It had the same look and rosette as this (I think the sound is from his normal negra in studio):
The most perfect old conde I have encountered was a 1960 my student owns and though the age it functions in a perfectly “modern” way and compares to the 1923 Esteso of Montoya I played in Brune’s museum:
I loved Brune’s 1967, similar to my own 1973, same rosette bracing etc:
I had compared it to 1971 different bracing that had more bass, but mine and Brune’s have this same strong mid range that balances the entire instrument IMO. My modern Blanca from Felipe V is very similar in tone but a touch more bass/volume. Honestly only the looks are significantly different (audio scooped via EQ):
Reyes/Barbero/Santos I have tried are very different than the Esteso line above, at least in feeling response. Gerundio I feel are great in the low mids, but I never liked the trebles compared to the Reyes. Reyes I had for 2 weeks for a student before he purchased, and it was an inspiring guitar, very different than the Esteso dry mid range. I has more overtone and sustain, etc., raspy unlike classical nasal guitars. I get why Antonio, Vicente etc. go for it. I don’t understand why Tomatito preferred it so long, it is not for him (or me). Nuñez sold his. We are going for that dry mid range balance thing. Even the negras have it. Ramirez, the old cedar top, very different sound. They did not have the “punch” but were very lyrical. I had bias against due to my early experience with a mediocre 1971 1a classical I struggled to make sound right. Sanchis was inline with Esteso/conde, so it is easy to believe that they constructed many of them (whether they did or not in fact, they are good “conde” alternatives).
Finally, I love my Jeronimo Peña Fernandez, played several negras and blancas, all good but very different in the trebles, very bright or metallic. It is ok as something very different. I just did a show swapping between her and the conde negra with no change of my mic setting (flat with some bass rolled of beta 87A).
orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 5 2025 14:33:10)
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Brune’s 1967, similar to my own 1973, same rosette bracing etc:
My 1971 also has the same bracing. I remember Echi saying that it's not typical bracing? Here it is played by Javier Conde.
Brune's 1967
1971
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Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 5 2025 15:23:15)
funny , theres one or two guitars for sale that belongs to Javier Conde , one had 2 repairs (jose rodriguez pena) 1970 euros and the other its a beautfil negra from antonio garcia with Brazilian Rosewood from an old Malaga Palace from 18cen or so , very nice price 2100 euros
i think this is the Blanca , and maybe the same on the Onlineflamenco school videos
Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 6 2025 0:13:59)
That is the “Barbero” bracing used at times in the seventies for some blancas. It was not uncommon for the Conde of those years but not their typical one. Imho that bracing goes for the more raw kind of Conde sound. As usual Santos tried everything before the others. https://maderaguitarras.com/shop/santos-hernandez-1939/ Barbero refined it. I for one think highly of Ramirez flamenco. As usual the brand is quite inconsistent (as Conde btw) and other may have shaped their ideas based on the actual guitars passed by their hands.
Earlier Sobrinos are not that different from those made after 59 but the 3 brothers used to be on their own. .
Ricardo -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 6 2025 13:30:35)
quote:
As usual Santos tried everything before the others.
Those sticks are not parallel, they are fanning as normal, perhaps not so spread as typical. The modern Condes that borrow that parallel concept tend to be dry with strong midrange, but perhaps that is coincidence. As you say, they were the minority guitar, but it seems good ones from 70's keep popping up (thanks Orson, nice guitar).
Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 6 2025 14:15:48)
Santos also went for completely parallel struts (when he did it, he used a slanted main transverse bar). I posted the picture of the Santos own by Madera because here you have the 2 closing bars, as Marcelo Barbero will do after Santos.
There’s a precious interview of Robert Ruck in an old journal of American Lutherie: Robert discusses how the inclination of the fan struts contribute to a more “unified” movement of the top while the use of a parallel struts pattern tends to work for the separation of the voices and a certain raw sound, with less sustain. In theory this is good for flamenco, hence Barbero, Ramirez and later Conde went for parallel bracing. The point is that the bracing system affects the way the top flexes in the 2 axes: parallel bracing tend to favor less flexibility along the grain direction and a a higher flexibility transversely to the top. Torres used to have a well spread fan struts with a strong inclination while Santos took the other direction.
Reckon that parallel struts easily brings to cracked tops alone the wood veins with time. Conde could go for parallel struts as they had a particularly thick top.
hxwhf72752003 -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 12 2025 8:58:52)
I just sold my Jesus de Jimenez. So I have some money for a new guitar. I was going to wait until I arrived in Australia to buy a new guitar, but I found a conde that was in good condition.
The Conde was made on 1995, spruce top and rio rosewood. But instead of the usual 7 fan-shaped frames + 2 bottom beams, the internal beam frame of this guitar is in the form of 5+2. I looked up some of the old posts on this forum, maybe this is the structure of the old Conde. I wonder how this structure will differ from the common 7+2? The guitar is still on its way and I haven't been able to record a video yet.
Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 12 2025 22:41:14)
What shop? Gravina7, FelipeV or Atocha 53? Without a picture or a sketch is difficult to guess.
hxwhf72752003 -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 13 2025 5:41:57)
It was from Felipe V.
The merchant's description: The internal structure is composed of two tuning pegs located above and below the sound hole (on the neck side and the bridge side). Five symmetrical fan-shaped braces are distributed at sufficient intervals across the entire bottom of the soundboard, and two V-shaped closed rods are installed at the bottom to receive the tips of the five braces. The resonance point is set below G. This support structure is a rather traditional style, but it is actually quite rare in Conde's high-end models (even for the same model, the angles and lengths of the supports are often completely different). However, by adopting the traditional style, a hard, elastic tone and rich tonal nuances characteristic of Conde are achieved, giving the instrument a different expressiveness from the brand's subsequent tenacious sound, which is its appeal.
I will receive it about five days later. I will upload a structure photo. I find a picture from Mariano Conde's Instagram, and I think it is same structure.
Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 14 2025 20:00:45)
They are Mariano Conde EF5. I have not seen yet a 5 bracing top for Conde Felipe V. Not saying it’s impossible. I’d check carefully though.
hxwhf72752003 -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 15 2025 17:24:52)
I have checked the structure of my guitar. The structures of my guitar and the one in Mariano's picture are same. The sound of my guitar is good, strong and deep. It is not similar to the modern condes. I also searched some information, but I only found some pictures of the 5+2 brace from Mariano Conde.
hxwhf72752003 -> RE: Another Conde post (Mar. 15 2025 17:27:01)
I don't have the tools to take a clear picture of the structure like Orsonw, but I'm sure the guitar has the same structure as the Mariano Conde guitar I uploaded earlier.
