RE: Another Conde post (Full Version)

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orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 25 2025 14:44:21)

quote:

Right, well, I meant, I need to see a NON - conde associated luthier do this. In case we have forgotten all these guys are accused of outsourcing for good reasons. J


Yes. I mentioned 'the conde tradition', it was my failed attempt at sarcasm.



Ricardo -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 25 2025 15:06:49)

quote:

This is why the stamp is glued just after the guitar can be played and evaluated.


Right, all that makes perfect sense….for a guy that did not build the guitar and is concerned attaching his own name to the thing. [:D]



Erik van Goch -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 25 2025 16:51:40)

My father's classical 1962 Ramirez has the stamp of Contreras. How did the colaboration between the lutiers working at the Ramirez studio in that period of time work. Did they singlehandedly build a guitar from finish to end or did they also work on guitars mutualy (contributing a part of their likings or specialty) or a combination of both ( like in the Rembrandt atelier). My father didn't exclude the possibility of a colaboral effort in which case the one assembling the guitar (with parts optionaly made by various contributers) might have been the one leaving his stamp. He once told me he bought his guitar just before the whole world started to order one (dude to Segovia) and I can imagine when demand/production raised it became a kind of factury process. My father recommended it to all his students but stopped doing so when Ramirez started building guitars with a tapperned neck which he concidered unplayable and most likely an adaption to people who were not able to play the guitar properly :-).



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 25 2025 17:36:02)

can you show the stamp?



Erik van Goch -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 25 2025 18:05:33)

No, I don't play the guitar and it's with my brother who doesn't play it as well.



Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 25 2025 18:18:21)

The stamp is in the inner heel. in this case here is a Paulino Bernabè.

The workers could pick the woods (already thicknesses) from the stock of Ramirez, they had to follow strictly the same plan, but for some thicknessing, and make use of the rosettes prepared by a different employee.
Basically they were employees paid per piece. Ramirez used to have 4 employees in the early sixties but the number grew quickly in the seventies and eighties

No significative difference regarding Conde but it was a much smaller company.
In the late seventies things changed



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Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 25 2025 23:13:52)

is that a "studio" model ? or just a 1a (or so) outsource?

some time ago , one or two years i put here the stamps history along the time including those who werent made there (studio/cheap ones) and the stamps were different , it didnt needed the signature thats why the stamps were different.

Funny that i saw last week a supposed Manuel Contreras from the 60s... , the headstock seems like a cheap tatay and tomas from 60/70, the tuners seems cheap, not sure relate to woods quality also.. , and the Stamp inside the tipical Contreras without signature seems funny in very good condition for the time and also the stamp contours the wood inside like someone glue it to the wood and made it that strange way

actiom seems too high, sides seems glued , headstock seems wrong maker , stamp seems glued to wood contour , arm seems mahogany(?) and it was from another guitar (?)
Frankenstein or just a cheap Contreras? (or the two?)









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Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 26 2025 0:15:33)

That is a legitimate 1st class Ramirez made by Bernabé. If it was a 2nd class the label would have a golden frame instead of light blue. In the caee of Conde The label would be unsigned.
Studio series guitars, like the Contreras you mention, are just cheap stuff for tourist (not made in Madrid) always available at the shop.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 26 2025 3:29:41)

I remember my stamp is quite similar in looks and location but with the initials of contreras. If I remember wel 1a was added on the label. Can't remember if it was signet by Ramirez but I believe it was.



orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 26 2025 11:21:19)

quote:

I remember my stamp is quite similar in looks and location but with the initials of contreras. If I remember wel 1a was added on the label. Can't remember if it was signet by Ramirez but I believe it was.


1957-1967 1A labels are like Echi posted. After 1967 the label changes to include number and signature rather than just blue border for 1A. Your father's is 1962? Are you sure it has '1A' and signature on it?

More info on Ramirez labels here:
https://guitarrasramirez.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/guitarras_ramirez_our_labels.pdf

e.g. Post 1967



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Erik van Goch -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 26 2025 13:24:13)

Thanks and no I'm not sure about a signature and 1a addet. Only about the stamp and the year. I'll ask my brother to make a photo of it.....

Edit/ps.. Mr president we got 'm.....






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Ricardo -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 26 2025 18:20:44)

In case folks are confused “M.G.”= Manuel Gonzales Contreras

https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/ramirez-workshop-luthiers/

And looks like 1962 would be the last of those.



Filip -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 2:49:22)

Speaking about Conde, I run on this website and in particular this guitar for sale (no idea how I ended up there, I did not know about the site before). I am not at all knowledgeable about the topic and maybe I missed this detail on the foro, but does it look like a legit Conde to you ? My eyes are on the headstock...



hxwhf72752003 -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 6:01:19)

This is the right one. But it is the Studio Model which is for students and the price is too high. You can find some same guitars with lower prices.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 8:04:46)

Thanks. Do you have any idea when and by who Manolo Sanlucar's iconic classical Ramirez was build (the one that was stolen)?



Ricardo -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 11:47:18)

quote:

Speaking about Conde, I run on this website and in particular this guitar for sale (no idea how I ended up there, I did not know about the site before). I am not at all knowledgeable about the topic and maybe I missed this detail on the foro, but does it look like a legit Conde to you ?


The price is equivalent to the top models coming out of that shop that were made by sanchis lopez many years ago. Meaning, a 2k guitar built in Valencia is sold at 3.5K…but those looked like top level condes with media Luna etc. These studio guitar models were only 1k to 1.2k. This guitar was built in 2022, and it is possible (since I have not kept up with their market value) that the shop has increased their prices from the old days, also since Sanchis also increased their prices and recently are “closing shop”. But I would not pay that price as even the tie block looks more like the $700 Alhambra factory variety. Also it is misleading that they make a claim using Paco de Lucia’s name, which is grounds for a legal claim from the estate (built in the style of PDL guitar is false).

Typically Atocha was the more fair priced of the conde market IMO, only up charging a nominal percentage for Valencia made guitars that one could get from the factory with different head cuts etc. The Gravina was the worse mark up (even if Felipe V was doing the same thing, at least the guitars they typically let go for 5K were very good instruments). People like Nuñez and Chicuelo used Atocha (Aka. Sanchis) built Conde’s for years, now a days Yerai no hay Cortes. Today I still wonder whether my best Felipe V Conde’s aren’t of the same breed, it is just they were hand picked by good players.



hxwhf72752003 -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 12:03:36)

I am dreaming for having a Conde Atocha like Chicuelo's crazily. Their price is good and the sound is also excellent. But I can't find Conde Atocha from 90s year at all.[:D][:D]



silddx -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 12:19:51)

Orson has one for sale. Don’t know if it’s the kind you’re after though.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=350025&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1



hxwhf72752003 -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 12:23:04)

That is a good one. But I would like a more modern type. And I am still preparing budget.



Manitas de Lata -> [Deleted] (Feb. 27 2025 12:30:49)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2025 9:37:52



Erik van Goch -> [Deleted] (Feb. 27 2025 12:35:04)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 27 2025 12:44:59



Echi -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 13:42:37)

Instead of a modern Conde Atocha is much better a Javier Castano.
Javier is the luthier who raised again the quality of Conde Atocha before becoming independent. His guitars are relatively cheap and the quality is above the new Conde imho.

I like that negra guitar for sale: I have the feeling it's more like an 80 Conde



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 14:07:44)

he charges new the same as Conde (more or less)
used are more or less the same



Ricardo -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 15:02:39)

quote:

the website is legit ,


I got excited by some of those prices…until I scrolled down and saw all the horrible damages and mediocre repair jobs. What a shame. The guitars are too good to drop prices lower, but in such bad shape they will never sell. That Jeronimo Peña sounds amazing, but what a mess on the back. [:(]



hxwhf72752003 -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 15:52:46)

absolutely agree. Javier is a humble luthier, and his instruments is popular these years. He likes cedro top with cypress back and sides. Has he worked at Conde Atocha since the 90s? I like Chicuelo so much and I know that he had a Conde Atocha made on 1994 or 1997. I think Javier was not working for Atocha at that time.



Manitas de Lata -> [Deleted] (Feb. 27 2025 16:01:41)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2025 9:38:08



Manitas de Lata -> [Deleted] (Feb. 27 2025 21:30:20)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2025 9:38:14



orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 21:45:43)

quote:

the website is legit ,


I got excited by some of those prices…until I scrolled down and saw all the horrible damages and mediocre repair jobs. What a shame. The guitars are too good to drop prices lower, but in such bad shape they will never sell. That Jeronimo Peña sounds amazing, but what a mess on the back.


I do not recommend this shop. I've had experience dealing with them.

I have also previously owned a couple of Condes that I sold on, and saw eventually end up with this dealer. They did not describe them accurately, no mention of the significant repairs and asked double the price of other dealers.
Another example: they currently have a Conde with a replaced top, asking £7.5K and no mention of the replaced top instead just hyperbole and 'Faustino', 'Paco de Lucia' etc... Solera previously sold this guitar for £2K.



orsonw -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 22:13:53)

quote:

Has he worked at Conde Atocha since the 90s?

Javier Castaño worked for Conde Atocha from 2014 until 2022.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Another Conde post (Feb. 27 2025 23:16:33)

strange hes got the repairs disclaimed on the ones that i saw, rather no to pick those for the price.

did the guy purchased that Conde not knowing what it was?
that sucks



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