RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 7 2024 18:14:35)

Here is the guy that taught it to Paco. Jump to 6:45, the Gaspar Sanz I used to hate sounds amazing under his fingers. I can only find his versions of movement 2 you can check out of Aranjuez, but I am more concerned with the other two movements, where the players really show who they are.




estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 8 2024 1:15:16)

Oh yeah! Thanks for finding that, the original whole beans. He’s such a creative guitarist.



estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 8 2024 1:23:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalalkun

well, not agreeing is not beefing as long as no one is attacking someone else's opinion imho. it's okay for you to not like the original on repeat and like to see a fresh breeze of air with jazz interpretations etc. and I kinda see what you mean. for me personally, the way paco played it just sent me to a completely different dimension and that actually inspired me to pick up the guitar in the first place. i cannot listen to any other rendition from most other classical players because they can't get even close to the finesse and sincerity paco played it with. everyone else does a kitsch version of it, including all these low budget instrumental renditions and "Le Bairut" from the lebanese legend Fairuz. cheap cheesy kitsch in the most literal sense. at least for me 😌

but i believe it's because most people don't hear the sadness and sincerity in the 2nd movement and try to make it romantic and beautlful/sweet. but in fact it's really sad, like saying a final goodbye. paco was the only one to see this and bring this out.



I never made it clear that I do like the strength of PdL version, because after that many players just tickle it like it’s cute puppy. His take on it is decisive and assertive.

For my generation as an average American who grew up watching commercial television there’s a big sack of irony attached to this music because it was often used as background music for TV programs and advertising. It’s everywhere in 1970’s through 90’s advertising. So when we hear ‘da da dun….dadada da titi da dun’ we know we are about to get sold a brand of dandruff shampoo.

The guitarist has to command it in such a way that they melt away the American cheese.

I had a friend who died about ten years ago who was an oudi. He liked older oud music and styles. He used to say grumpy things about ‘this new generation of Iraqi oudists who get a fancy playing up near the sound hole really fast ‘ then he’d stop and go ‘bah patwey’ and spit on the ground. I’m kind of getting like that.



rombsix -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 8 2024 12:47:27)

quote:

The guitarist has to command it in such a way that they melt away the American cheese.


[:D]



jalalkun -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 10 2024 8:49:45)

also liked the american cheese metaphor 😂😂 I actually heard the real thing by pdl first, after that I heard the first "version from hell" in Iraq actually. the guys selling bottled gas on a wheelbarrow and banging an iraqi beat on the handle with their wrench switched to pickup trucks blasting the cheesiest version of Aranjuez across the neighborhood. The Iraqis, for whatever reason, call it "monomor", so just "Mon Amour" in a heavy Iraqi accent. I have no idea how the hell they gave it this name.

how assertive do I need to play then to melt away Iraqi cheese? that sounds so wrong 🤣🤣💀



Brendan -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 10 2024 8:59:06)

Because this https://youtu.be/W2mwuU1a-Mg



jalalkun -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 10 2024 12:29:38)

oh god 💀 so that's where fairuz' composers stole the idea for Le Beirut (closeness between france and libanon iykyk). those goddamn plagiarists.

i wish i never heard it, hopefully i'll unhear it 😭😂



rombsix -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 10 2024 13:33:22)

quote:

how assertive do I need to play then to melt away Iraqi cheese? that sounds so wrong 🤣🤣💀


[8D][:D]



estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 10 2024 16:09:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalalkun

oh god 💀 so that's where fairuz' composers stole the idea for Le Beirut (closeness between france and libanon iykyk). those goddamn plagiarists.

i wish i never heard it, hopefully i'll unhear it 😭😂



Welcome to my world 😆

Iraqi cheese is probably goat or sheep’s cheese, more than cow cheese or processed cheese? I don’t know I’ve not been to a market there. In which case Goat or sheep cheese would enhance the concerto. Stilton cheese would bend it like Bream and Havarti would render it Nordically dry.



jalalkun -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 10 2024 17:04:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Welcome to my world 😆

Iraqi cheese is probably goat or sheep’s cheese, more than cow cheese or processed cheese? I don’t know I’ve not been to a market there. In which case Goat or sheep cheese would enhance the concerto. Stilton cheese would bend it like Bream and Havarti would render it Nordically dry.


actually, arguably the founding father of all cream cheeses, Gemar, is made of buffalo's milk. that's the one Iraq is known for the best. more affordable alternatives are made of cow's milk, similar to the difference between fior di latte and mozzarella di bufala. the more popular goat and sheep cheeses are from the palestine region, most notably 'Akkawi and Nabulsi. so Iraqi Aranjuez gotta be silky, creamy and sweet on the pellet. 🤤



estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 11 2024 2:07:20)

Gemar aire, the Babylonian influence on Spanish music.



Filip -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 14 2024 19:24:21)

I actually quite like Paco's Concierto de Aranjuez.



Ricardo -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 16 2024 1:32:53)

It is time for one of my first ever YouTube creations (17 years ago jeez!!!):




estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 16 2024 8:00:29)

Have you ever seen the one with John Williams and Paco Pena talking about how to interpret Sevilla ?

But Paco vs. the universe, point PdL. In fact Paco should give every other guitarist ( with the exception of the guy who showed him the fingers) a 50 point handicap.

I still think it’s not a great piece of music. It’s like Stravinsky’s Pulcinella, but not quite as convincing. It’s ‘neo classical’ in that sense that it, not to beat a beaten burro, is refried material from a past era. In 20th century music it was a thing, but the best one for my money in neo classicism is Suite Italien also Stravinsky.

I feel like Darth Vader and it feels good. 😂



Ricardo -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 16 2024 13:38:54)

quote:

Have you ever seen the one with John Williams and Paco Pena talking about how to interpret Sevilla ?


Yes I have shared it a gazillion times to show why I respect Williams mainly. In that vein, where basic beginner time keeping seems to elude certain classical musicians with high reputation (inexplicably to me other than Segovia romanticism or something), the thing Paco is doing, not including blind Rodrigo's ridiculous high chord voicing, is literally rudimentary dance class rasgueado. I remember after posting that people giving me a hard time, like "paco is faster so what? Music is not about speed" etc. I mean, that is literally not the point. Like basic rasguedo down up stroke to keep time is "showing off speed?". The abanico is simply how it is done, or you can't play basic gallop rhythms like Verdiales. It is not that fast, it is very normal for basic time keeping.

I mean in the same Bream documentary he is playing these ridiculous hard pieces like the aguado (at least he makes it look damn hard! [:D]), and then a basic 16th note up and down strum it all falls apart at the climax of the piece??? For Paco he was like "finally, the EASY part of the song". Well, I try to get students to work on rasgueado anyway, that it is more important than single notes. I love how Morante posts these singers with some unknown guitarists with these vicious rasgueados, it is great.



estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 16 2024 14:46:05)

Someone told me Segovia’s mother was gitana, and he grew up in proximity to the culture. But I’m repeating what I was told by an authority, don’t beat on me if anyone says no.


EDIT CORRECTION-

I had forgotten the history, because I don’t have the reference books on hand. I was reminded via email that Paco Lucena was Segovia’s father and his mother was non gitana. That’s the history. Although I don’t know why in his representative information available online, like Segovia wiki page etc., he’s listed as being parent less, autobiography explains his parentage.

Perhaps Segovia is such a towering fabled guitarist that the mystical story line is that the great Andres was born parthenogenically.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 16 2024 22:33:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

In her recent concert here in Austin, Ana Vidovic played a solo version of the whole Aranjuez that she arranged. It was fast, and a virtuoso showpiece.

I liked it.

RNJ


I’m interested in that, anything she does is worth hearing. Is there a video existing that features her playing this?


Here you go:


RNJ



estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 16 2024 23:44:50)

Great, I’m going to listen to it later today



Brendan -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 17 2024 0:08:03)

Ricardo posts Williams getting a compás lesson from Paco Peña, and then I mention the Bream masterclass on Sevilla where he tells some student “You gotta play it more rhythmical. It’s the old Sevilly-arnas”. And he breaks out a few rounds of compás de sevillana because, weak wasgueado notwithstanding, he understood rhythm. In another masterclass, Bream tells a student “In Spanish music, your triplets better be real triplets.”



estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 17 2024 2:46:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

In her recent concert here in Austin, Ana Vidovic played a solo version of the whole Aranjuez that she arranged. It was fast, and a virtuoso showpiece.

I liked it.

RNJ


I’m interested in that, anything she does is worth hearing. Is there a video existing that features her playing this?


Here you go:


RNJ


I listened to it. Impressive and as I predicted vastly more listenable than the screechy arrangements of Yamashita, which I find 80% unlistenable. I have to say, I’m still not a big fan of the piece in general. But more for other reasons than the guitarists who challenge themselves with it. I don’t fault guitarists for taking it on, it’s a bread and butter peice for a concertizing guitarist. It doesn’t take me anywhere, and I think the big fascination with it is comparing how different guitarists mount a performance of it.



Ricardo -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 17 2024 11:57:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Great, I’m going to listen to it later today


Oh no. I love her for other reasons....I can't watch....ok I sneaked a peek. First movement. Wish I hadn't. Worse than I thought. ugh. How am I gonna redeem this. Well, at least the solo version reveals how ridiculous it is as a piece of disconnected non-coherent phrasing it all is. [:D]



estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 17 2024 14:50:44)

Now, now, tut tut, mustn’t become a nihilistic curmudgeon like me.

I’ve been thinking of starting a thread called ‘The Aire Of Musical Grievances’ as a take off of Seinfeld’s ‘Airing of Grievances’. We could just get it all out at once every year in mid December.

There was Tonebase video about three months ago where some guy in his 20’s says that Yamashita’s direct to disc recordings of Mussorgsky and Stravinsky were a game changer in guitar music and performance. I vomited a little in my mouth. When they came out in the mid 1980’s they were considered cutting edge, but I’m of the opinion they don’t have staying power. Just one of the several things that make me grumpy.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 17 2024 21:17:13)

quote:

Well, at least the solo version reveals how ridiculous it is as a piece of disconnected non-coherent phrasing it all is.


Ricardo, I remember your objecting to being made to learn Falla's Homenaje while you were at college. You objected to its numerous "unrelated" parts.

On the other hand, Benjamin Britten is quoted to the effect that the piece is only four minutes long, but it contains twenty minutes worth of music.

I'm not necessarily the greatest fan of the Aranjuez, but I thought Vidovic made the best case for it I had heard. I remember being fascinated at the concert by the unerring accuracy and speed of her left hand, and the detailed dynamics and phrasing, even at top speed.

As for "disconnected" I picture the composer sitting with pencil in hand, thinking "Now what?"....then when inspiration strikes, jotting down a new idea without any transition whatsoever. I find the contrasts in "Homenaje" interesting and enlivening, while you find them boring and disconnected.

But it could be said the the Aranjuez is eighteen minutes long but only contains five minutes worth of music--plus repetitions.

Different strokes.....

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 18 2024 4:42:49)

If the Aranjuez has 6 minutes of guitar in a 20 minute peice I’d rather go with this:



The orchestration is more satisfying to me because it’s not burdened by what I can now put words to, phony Iberian schmalz. I know this is an extremely unpopular thing to say, the Aranjuez to me feels like kitsch. I could go into why, but why?

This small gem by Malcolm Arnold is nice because it’s tender, sensitive, but not saccharine. Or has our blokes from Britain say, ‘treacley’. I like it a lot also because the orchestra is chamber sized, but really accompanies with some surprises in texture. And not least of all, it’s designed around a combination of harmonics and farmer chords strummed like a cowboy singer around a campfire. I know this farmer chord rageo will strike deep at Ricardo’s heart strings.

It’s Occam’s Razor music composition- if the instrument is good at playing strummed chords in a basic position, that’s the most obvious choice to make. As opposed to a positional quagmire of untenable chords that John Williams opted to play in the most basic position. Arnold just started with open strings being strummed and said forget creating chord structures above the 11th fret. Because they usually sound brittle on classical guitars, and brittle is a fairly useless texture which only needs to be used a tiny bit to get the message across. Let Nuno have the stuff above the 13th fret on an electric and keep classical and flamenco in the midrange.

Just say no to 20th frets, it only encourages beastly virtuoso behavior.

Get off my lawn!



Ricardo -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 18 2024 11:18:29)



Concierto starts 16:20




estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 18 2024 13:56:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo



Concierto starts 16:20





No fouls detected. McLaughlin on a cutaway that joins at the 14th fret, Manolo at 4:39 ripping while mostly anchoring with bar on 11 /10 frets with brief bursts over the body.


McLaugh automatically has immunity to prosecution for breaking fingerboard zoning laws because his vehicle is equipped with the proper chassis and body style for that style driving.



Ricardo -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 20 2024 12:09:58)

here is a nice "slow" version, communing with the orchestra. Also he drops the scale 2:25. Not big deal even if it was a mistake. Paco could have done more with orchestras but he was probably annoyed by the lack of tightness.




estebanana -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 21 2024 4:03:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

here is a nice "slow" version, communing with the orchestra. Also he drops the scale 2:25. Not big deal even if it was a mistake. Paco could have done more with orchestras but he was probably annoyed by the lack of tightness.





Or he wasn’t keen on the cornball orchestration in this arrangement. Or he was formulating other idea and met up with the Shrimp.



Ricardo -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Dec. 21 2024 16:29:01)

this orchestra was certainly by Torregrossa (whose family Paco's family sued for back royalty recently, and won), as he wanted to push paco into the classical guitar market and tour circuit. Duende is possibly my favorite album of Paco despite the orchestrations (basically expanding Ramon's guitar parts), which are cheesy. All that changed when between two waters dropped on the next album.



Ricardo -> RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (Feb. 26 2025 12:11:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Great, I’m going to listen to it later today


Oh no. I love her for other reasons....I can't watch....ok I sneaked a peek. First movement. Wish I hadn't. Worse than I thought. ugh. How am I gonna redeem this. Well, at least the solo version reveals how ridiculous it is as a piece of disconnected non-coherent phrasing it all is. [:D]


Came across this last night. She is now redeemed lol. It is so great, the same album I have of her when she was young, opens with this suite, and she is even better at it here. Of course the timing is still an issue for me, but when she is in the groove it is exquisite. Seems she is tuning her guitar sharp (for tension I assume), I think in the past she was accused of speeding up the old recording of this piece. The only thing that could make this even better is if she used an orange conde.




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