RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Full Version)

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Miguel de Maria -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 5:53:37)

I have a couple of Juan Martin videos, his VHS series and his DVD. I think it was really great starting out to be able to see the techniques. Of course, I had the advantage of playing with some really fine players here in Phoenix and I learned some from them too. I think Juan Martin is a great guy for bringing flamenco to places that it wasn't, and inspiring people to play flamenco.

I don't have any of his albums, just his instructional materials. From watching those, at least, I can certainly say that his compositional skills (at least for the educational stuff) is quite weak and his technique subpar for any kind of recording musician in this genre.

That being said, good for him for making it and for inspiring people and teaching. At least he can speak English and he tries to help people, which is a lot more than you can say about virtually any other flamenco player.



flyeogh -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 7:05:09)

quote:

in all my time i have never had a conversation with a guitarist here or from Spain and said , "that Juan guy puah, hes got some stuff dosent he, have u heard his latest album'


Bit of an idiot that JM - spends his time entertaining people who want to be entertained, helping people who want to be helped, and making money[:D][:D][:D]



Guest -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 8:01:34)

quote:

If thats the flamenco sound we looking for f*ck it , il quit right now, cause that had the musicality of beating rusty bucket really fast


o.k Florian, now why dont you tell us what you really think![:D]

[8|].....
Does a rusty bucket sound much different to a rust free bucket?



Jon Boyes -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 8:37:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
Just for once whomever agrees with me please get off the fence and say something.
I dont wanna be the bad guy here but C OME ON.



I refer the honourable gentleman to points I made earlier [:)]

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=24759&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=24759&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#34589



Florian -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 10:56:27)

Miguel, I agree for beeing introduced to the flamenco technique hes Good his instructional stuff is good.


quote:

Bit of an idiot that JM - spends his time entertaining people who want to be entertained, helping people who want to be helped, and making money


flyeogh.. i never ever said that, on the contrary for someone as average player as he is to be as well known worldwide and even convince a couple of people that hes one of the best I think HE IS A GENIUS, truly.


Domenic, yeah i went a litlle far there dont know what else to say..

Jon yes i know, i might have been able to Bite my tongue longher and than i read your points and i was going to explode inside out if i didnt say what i really tought of his technique and music.

If it was just some guy here playing that id say that was great and encourage him but when it is this guy that some people (him included) think hes anywhere near the top 200 flamenco guitarists in the world I just couldnt shut up anymore (even tho now i feel like the friend that was at your party last night and drank too much and embarrased himself really badly).



Jon Boyes -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 11:24:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
If it was just some guy here playing that id say that was great and encourage him but when it is this guy that some people (him included) think hes anywhere near the top 200 flamenco guitarists in the world I just couldnt shut up anymore (even tho now i feel like the friend that was at your party last night and drank too much and embarrased himself really badly).


So it was you, eh?[:D]

I would take the marketing hype with a pinch of salt Flo, honestly, he is not a big headed guy.

As I said earlier, in a Guitar Player poll years ago he was voted as one of the three best guitarists in the world. That's not his doing, that's what the readers voted. Obviously he is going to quote that in his publicity, who wouldn't? (needless to say, if you had asked the same readers to name some flamenco guitarists, you would be lucky to get more than two names IMO).

With the quote that Jim posted about the classical guitar mag article, I think the writer has got the wrong end of the stick. Juan doesn't sing and has never claimed to be a song writer. I do have an earlier interview with him (from the same mag) where he talks about going back to the roots of flamenco - in particular its moorish ones - and introducing arabic instruments as a way of developing flamenco, rather than say, turning to jazz for inspiration, because he feels that this is being more true to the arts roots. He says that few are doing this, preferring to explore latin and jazz influences.

I think the article writer Jim is quoting is paraphrasing and getting it wrong.



Guest -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 12:13:23)

Hey man dont come back with this politically correct ****, its just not you Flo. The fact is theres a heap of people here that would hold exactly the same view as you and maybe stronger, the difference is they dont wanna rattle anyones cage. I myself dont listen to any Juan Martin music because its not my cup of tea, but be that as it may, im not going to make it my goal to put other people off him. I can see why you arked up because of comments like hes the 'third best guitarist in the world' which is obviously just plain tripe(what can u expect from a magazine), Juan Martin is a like a fossil that people seem to keep on rediscovering.



XXX -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 13:07:38)

Juan Martin is not worth fighting for or against him. Just my 2c. I think the video was incredebily overrated in this thread, anyone here can play that Rumba. If you like it, its ok. But no reason to start a debate on it.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 20 2006 16:09:28)

[Deleted by Admins]



Jim Opfer -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 16:34:52)

quote:

BTW, has anyone ever attended one of his concerts?


Sorry to say, I have.
He played the City Halls in Glasgow a good few years back. I went along because I'm a sucker who tries hard to support any 'flamenco' performance every time one comes to town. I managed to get half way through the first half and then couldn't weight for the interval to come soon enough. Dreadful, absolutely disgraceful. Thing is, that as I'm leaving I meet someone I know who is going on about how great the first half was and why am I leaving?
Thing I detest about Juan Martin is that he must know he's very average and playing pretty dull material, yet he's delighted to see himself promoted as some sort of flamenco God. Dreadful.
Other thing is that he's promoting very average performance as great flamenco guitar and all those classical players out there who know nothing about flamenco must be thinking ' If that's what it's all about, I'm not going to bother listening to anymore - Total turn off'

I watched a tutorial DVD by Oscar Herero last night. Not the best compositions in the world but I tell you, carefully worked out and very well crafted intelegent instructional material designed to teach a good solid flamenco technique. OH -v- JM = chalk and cheese.



Florian -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 16:47:06)

quote:

So those of you who state that anyone can do that in this forum (Deniz),


Deniz I beg of you post a video

Now Shroomy u have to realize that Juan is probably using a concert guitar worth about 20000 or something ( i imagine he has plenty of money) also u realize i trust that juans sound was done and compressed and had reverb added in a Tv station, where some of the best professional equipment is )

quote:

BTW, has anyone ever attended one of his concerts? Is he that sloppy in compas and technique when he has to perform for real?


he came to my town but Police Academy 6 (remastered) just came out on video, so i stayd home and watched that, otherwise i would have gonne, FOR SURE !! [:)].



Escribano -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 16:51:05)

quote:

Police Academy 6 (remastered)

Ahh, a classic!



XXX -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 16:56:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
he came to my town but Police Academy 6 (remastered) just came out on video, so i stayd home and watched that, otherwise i would have gonne,


You're so cruuuel! [:D]



Florian -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 17:00:54)

Btw. Martin would never jam with someone like Ricardo or Grisha because hed realize that they would make him look like an intermediate player and that just ouldnt be good for bussines.



Florian -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 17:09:18)

quote:

You're so cruuuel!


No i am not, I am beeing diplomatic (using soft words) about how i really feel about Martins music as one of the 3rd most flamenco composer.

Shroomy726.

I like you i really do , i hope u take nothing i say personally because i would hate that, like his music , Yes wonderfull thats up to you.

But its up to me to not like it also, and if he can go there and say that hes one of the only 3 Guitarists blah blah blah..

Then other people can say that hes not, up to you whom u belive...



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 20 2006 17:40:19)

[Deleted by Admins]



Florian -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 17:47:43)

Are u serious Shroomy ? are u thinking i cant play that crusty rumba ?



XXX -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 17:52:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726

Oh, and I am still waiting for that video Deniz.



What?! STILL? Your just too patient [;)]

Oh, and I think you have understood very well, what I wanted to say. Making a video doesnt change my statement and, only by the way, if you would have wanted to proove it, you would have to ask everyone to do a video, which is, you see it now, ridiculous.
Besides, and to close this useless discussion, by making that statement, I said something about THE PIECE and about JM.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 20 2006 17:53:32)

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henrym3483 -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 19:26:31)

as the bloke on the ad sez

"DOOO IT, DOOO IT!!!!!!!!"[:D][:D][:D]



henrym3483 -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 19:31:31)

as i said before i saw juan martin, and i thought his technique and what he played was quite good, given the chance though i would prefer to see tomatito or gerardo nunez for my money. tomatito was here in dublin when i was on work experience in france and i was kicking myself after it[:(]



luke.park -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 19:39:11)

i must admit, i like juan and play a lot of his stuff which does go down well but i do think this was played poorly. he looked as though he was trying to show off to the audience rather than play the actual piece. ive seen him play several rumbas live where they are played in compas, at the good tempo and with excitement but here i was disapointed. hey! noones perfect! not even paco... well..



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 20:24:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] Hahahaha
BTW, i read in Miguel's post that there are six month players giving advice, is he referring to me?
Lionel

Shroom, if it applies to you, then take it as such, if not, then don't....I don't recall saying anything at all to you, did I?



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 20 2006 20:40:29)

[Deleted by Admins]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 21:49:17)

Sorry, man, I really doubt I was talking to you about it--especially if you didn't do it! I may have as well been talking about myself, since about anything I complain about, I have done at least once...



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 22:41:06)

quote:

Wow, I had no idea there were so many Juan Martin haters!


Just call them closet flamenco guitar players. Being a critic is easy. They have not done much to interest or teach others flamenco but they know it all. We are indeed fortunate to have such an assemblage of experts. [:D]



Conrad -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 23:21:15)

It's unfortunate that I first used that term, "Juan haters". For me, in my context it was just a comical figure of speech, and I was only defending those ones who tread lightly as far as this subject, because it is a slippery one. Nobody hates Juan, nor should they. And I sincerely have always recognized what he has done to expose Spanish music. I apologize for my word choice.

I've learned a lot from this banter. Thanks everyone.

-Con



Florian -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 23:35:48)

quote:

Just call them closet flamenco guitar players. Being a critic is easy. They have not done much to interest or teach others flamenco but they know it all

Thomas.....

I have done a hell of alot around here at the forum for free, to promote and help to the best of my abbilities alot more than he and you put togheder did.


Are u forgheting loops , and tabs (check out the old tab section, i have uploaded and emailed about 80% of those when the forum started up) started the group solos, mixed the first one, uploading demos of cds that some people went out and purchased, and encouraging beginers and always helping anyone that has asked for it ? Spent 3 hours uploading Scales tablature, Recorded compas with count, Spent 3 days doing videos and exercises, Always trying to think of ways to make this forum a great forum, some members here emai me and ask me for help and loops with counting, and i have helped everyone that asked...(I am not saying i made the forum what it is, but i helped a hell of alot more than u )
Take another look around the forum and see how much i have done, than take a look and see how much u have done.

Are you serious ? I havent done anything ? U got some nerve saying that, about me or Conrad whos transcribed more tabs here that anyone else and shared it ith us, who are you ? what have u done for this place ?

Let me ask you...
What have you done to make this a better place ? Besides making comments here and there, anyone can do that, what actions have you acctually taken to make it a better place or help anyone here ith more than just a couple of words ? And if you have done something have you done it more than me around here ?

Has Juan ever done as much as i have around here for free ?

I am not an expert and i dont claim to be good but i have reached a point where i can tell a weak player, I havent acctually offended anyone here, but u went out of your way to offend me, yes he has done alot for flamenco but am i soposse to just say that hes one of the top 3 guitarists in the world when i know plain and simple that is crap, even if u knew him ?

I am sorry that you dont like it but flamenco guitar has changed ALOT in the last 30 years
and in the real world (flamenco dance schools and performances ) that old tired Juan stuff dont fly no more.
And no matter how much U guys try to hold it back and cry about the good all days (because u scared of anything new u dont understand) will bring it back.
Juan is good for begginers but hes irrelevant to flamenco guitar today.



Florian -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 20 2006 23:59:17)

Whats a closet flamenco guitarist anyway ? cause i play in front of people every weekend..



for someone whos nobody in flamenco i do enough to promote flamenco and help people here to the best of my abilities.

What do you do ? besides sitting here and complaining how the new stuff just dosent have that old feel

Show me a webpage where someone says that your playing has inspired him or put a smille on his face.

I might not be Paco or Juan [8|] but flamenco i do and promote i do.
U might not like the stuff i do, **** most of the times i dont, but theres dance schools who like it enough to pay me to do it, I am always still working at it, trying to get it better and it will get better and it does, but make no mistake about it it is flamenco, good or bad, but i have allways gonne foward even when pesimistic old goats used to make me feel like **** about liking what i like and playing what i play just because it didnt fitt into theyr tired out old ideas of what flamenco should be.



tluczek -> RE: Rumba by Juan Martin (Apr. 21 2006 0:20:34)

He has done a free one hour concert in my flat in Poznan :) just for me and my girlfriend (on my crappy guitar), 1,5 hour workshop for almost nothing and almost 2 hour great concert for a symbolic fee. Is it not flamenco? Or do you prefer 70000 EURO Paco's concert. If I was duende I'd prefer Juan's concert.
And he also put a hard work into his solos and methods, which now many people just download from the internet for free.
As for the rumba, it was just played for the public. Juan himself doesn't like much this rumba, because of its simplicity, he says it's not flamenco - it's just the people who love it.



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