RE: New Generation (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 9 2024 14:09:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

In Andalucia flamenco is alive and well

This video tells the opposite. Flamenco is dead in Andalusia as well.
We're living in a bubble here on the foro.





No, it just proved Morante’s point. First that there is a flamenco guitar pro interviewing these random people (the obvious) and second, there is a guy pointing out the Peña Juan Villar, implying an elite “club membership” concept of the art form in general. It has always been the case the lay people have no clue about it everywhere in the world. And that these elite tiny communities exist to keep it alive indefinitely has always been the case. I only disagree with Morante that these same elitist communities infact exist outside of Andalucia….this is not to say what is cultivated in these communities is equal to what is done in Andalucia. However, it has always been the case that it is not for popular consumption, and the general commercialization of flamenco has always been viewed in a negative way by aficionados…hence puristas.

Morante points out always that the foro is “guitar centric”, which can be the case outside of Andalucia due to the poetry. But honestly the cante accompaniment is very difficult to do, it is not like learning a few folk songs and off you go just cuz you speak Spanish. He pretends that it is “easy” for himself, but really he is just pointing again to the elitist situation I described. It is supposed to be exclusive…by design. We have cante accompaniment topics here, and these are the minority discussions, just like in the global situation.

The “death” of the art form is realized in a general way that unlike the past, the younger generation seems less and less interested in the old cantes, and flamenco in general. But considering the larger population, the fact there are a handful of kids that get into it is perfectly ok, for the elitist nature of the art to continue unperturbed.



devilhand -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 9 2024 14:38:42)

OK. Flamenco is still alive, but becoming less and less popular. Maybe the beginning of the end.



Ricardo -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 9 2024 15:16:31)

Consider these quotes:

—How did you become a guitarist?

—In the cafés cantantes of Madrid, many or most of which don't even exist any more.

Ramón Montoya

—"What do you think of modern singing?"
—"Flamenco nowadays is falling apart. People used to sing much better than they do today."
—"Who's the best modern guitarist?"
—"Without a doubt, Niño de Ricardo."

Javier Molina

“But, the bad thing about this art form is that when the flamenco trend wanes here in Argentina, and all of Latin America, EVEN IN SPAIN, it does so very suddenly. Then when it comes back with such a force that everybody is dancing and singing and playing flamenco for years. The problem is an economic one. The important artists don’t come here due to economics because no one here can afford to pay the dollars it takes to bring important performers here, and of course the fashion dies out. So, even IN SPAIN TODAY, artists are afraid to travel abroad for economic reasons”.

Esteban Delgado “De Sanlúcar”.

These statements are signs of the times, however, coupled with the old disdain for Rumbas, Fandango opera, and anything commercial, it seems NOTHING has changed really. These old opinions put it all in perspective, for me at least.



orsonw -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 9 2024 17:40:16)

quote:

In Andalucia flamenco is alive and well: there are 3 Peñas in Cádiz and each has flamenco every Friday. And Jerez, better still.


I meant people who argue that it's dead meaning that there are no great young singers. No one with the ability to create, all the cante creation has happened. In the past flamenco was alive with people creating cante, now it's only copying the past.

IMO if people attempt to copy well, there's nothing wrong with that.
I still hold a faint hope that at some point some young cante genius might emerge. There are enough of the 'elite tiny communities' as Ricardo says to keep it going in the meantime. Good to hear you Morante confirming that is still true in Cadiz, even though you've said before that it has a diminished flamenco scene.



ernandez R -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 10 2024 18:33:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Sorry, but last night we listened to Manoli de Gertrudi en directo. I cannot stand niñas who have ni voz ni conocimiento.


Of course. I wasn't expecting that you would like Ángeles Toledano.

I much prefer to listen live. The second best is a live recording, though often these days artists release something over produced in the studio.
Israel Fernandez did release an album last month which is a live recording.



https://open.spotify.com/album/5ysQ0KoZm8g5pAscPi8yRQ?si=Q-FHMPZRSQi6T3UcoOM2iw



Had a chance to listen to this IF album finely two nights ago. Last night I plugged it in, pulled a guitar off the wall? and jammed along until my fingers says stop. In a way it reminded me of those old scratchy recordings upthread but without the pops, hiss, and dynamic loss.

HR



Ricardo -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 11 2024 11:41:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Sorry, but last night we listened to Manoli de Gertrudi en directo. I cannot stand niñas who have ni voz ni conocimiento.


Of course. I wasn't expecting that you would like Ángeles Toledano.

I much prefer to listen live. The second best is a live recording, though often these days artists release something over produced in the studio.
Israel Fernandez did release an album last month which is a live recording.



https://open.spotify.com/album/5ysQ0KoZm8g5pAscPi8yRQ?si=Q-FHMPZRSQi6T3UcoOM2iw



the thing for me is that light falsetto voice is a weaker expression. This style is meant for a full voice like this guy is doing. He is an amateur and a little off tune but you get the idea of the power of this style. I don't get the point of doing it falsetto.



unless....he hears it that way because he has only been exposed to the noise reduction compressed digitized versions on the internet of those old cantes. [:D] cuz that is how he is singing it, like it fades out. Someone needs to get him a record player. [:D]



Manitas de Lata -> [Deleted] (Oct. 11 2024 14:07:59)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 18 2025 11:32:56



Morante -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 11 2024 15:41:46)




orsonw -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 11 2024 20:56:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
the thing for me is that light falsetto voice is a weaker expression. This style is meant for a full voice like this guy is doing. He is an amateur and a little off tune but you get the idea of the power of this style.


That high voice reminded me to listen to Porrina de Badajoz. I believe Porrina is using fuil voice, or maybe not? But he's still dynamic, moving between full power and the breaking, closer feeling that Israel Fernandez seems to be going for?


And talking of fandangos with full voice power, a little rough around the edges, reminds me of this video of Jose Chano. I think that's Jose Millan in the background, maybe Morente was there too?




RobF -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 11 2024 23:21:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw
...I think that's Jose Millan in the background, maybe Morente was there too?


Morente is the gentleman in the background holding the Shillelagh.



Manitas de Lata -> [Deleted] (Oct. 12 2024 0:27:36)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 18 2025 11:33:11



Ricardo -> RE: New Generation (Oct. 12 2024 16:23:35)

quote:

That high voice reminded me to listen to Porrina de Badajoz. I believe Porrina is using fuil voice, or maybe not? But he's still dynamic, moving between full power and the breaking, closer feeling that Israel Fernandez seems to be going for?


right, well that was his style. Yes loud and full in the first part and he gets dynamically quiet at the end... the style is his personal take on Enrique el Almendro (the guy in Cadiz is also doing that style), and these are like "por medio" if you will, and the thing I was on about earlier is the style of Manuel Vallejo specifically...and what I am saying is that light voice is not meant for that style IMO. It is supposed to be rather "valiante" and you can lighten it up toward the end as Porrina is doing, but not pure "falsetto" for crying out loud. It sounds to me like Israel is doing the whole letra very light like that, like it is a romantic Bossa nova or something. [:D]

Also: MORENTE= payo cantaor from Granada. MORANTE=famous bullfighter.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morante_de_la_Puebla

Here was a topic nobody seemed to be interested in, but Manolo Sanlucar's famous record has dedcations of each track to famous bullfighters. This was not included on the CD version(!!). I provided biography links to each:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=340990&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=tauromagia&tmode=&smode=&s=#350718



Manitas de Lata -> [Deleted] (Oct. 12 2024 17:38:32)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 18 2025 11:33:23



Erik van Goch -> RE: New Generation (Jan. 16 2025 22:28:20)

In Februari the IFFR (international film festival Rotterdam) will screen a future length docufilm about Jerai.

https://iffr.com/en/iffr/2025/films/la-guitarra-flamenca-de-yerai-cort%c3%a9s



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