The new book Santos Hernandez (Full Version)

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estebanana -> The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 2 2023 12:09:49)

The photo of Santos from the book and a small drawing of him I made a few years ago.

It’s a great book, received my copy about two weeks ago and have been savoring my way through it. I want to promote it, I think it’s a book flamenco guitarists would want to have and study if you care about guitar history. And certainly anyone building would be fascinated.

Because it’s fair use and a promotion, I’ll post a few photos from the book. If any one objects I’ll remove them.





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estebanana -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 2 2023 12:14:12)

Here are the contributors- a great essay each by Richard Brune’ and John Ray worth the price of admission alone:





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Ricardo -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 2 2023 14:01:47)

Definitely on my wish list!



estebanana -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 2 2023 14:26:13)

Some of the jewels in the crown- Santos just slays me, he’s so beautiful and yet not finicky intricate.





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Morante -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 2 2023 16:56:46)

Postigo has a couple of guitars by Santos: I didn´t think to ask the price[;)]



Fawkes -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 2 2023 17:56:47)

I had a lot of respect for and interest in Santos before, somewhat in the abstract, but the way this book illuminates his work has turned me into a Santosista.



estebanana -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 3 2023 6:01:15)

Javier Molina’s



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Jim Kirby -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 9 2023 0:43:12)

Alberto really did outdo himself on this one. It's amazing to see how much Santos continued to explore his entire career. No set formulas for him.

A gorgeous book!



Firefrets -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 9 2023 21:21:34)

Guitar books are always so expensive...

What are your thoughts on using a veneer as a Golpeador?



Echi -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 10 2023 0:39:43)

The book is nice: pictures are big and there’s a good amount of infos.
Being fussy I hoped for some more technical details and for more guitars.
Wood golpeadores are not a good idea imho.



yourwhathurts69 -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 10 2023 3:36:01)

quote:

Wood golpeadores are not a good idea imho.


But they look cool! :D



estebanana -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 10 2023 7:59:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets

Guitar books are always so expensive...

What are your thoughts on using a veneer as a Golpeador?



Very useful on an old guitar with a torn up top as a way of making it look not torn up.
Ever see a guitar with deep finger nail gouges under the first string? Easy cosmetic fix is to use veneer applied with hide glue. Then on top of the veneer apply a thin self adhesive Mylar.
Occasionally there’s a call to use an opaque tap plate for reasons, veneer with thin plastic over it can be used or white plastic. ( or z any color)

I had someone request macassar ebony plates. I covered macassar veneer with coats of epoxy and I polished it. Then shaped tap plates and glued it on. He came back ten years later and asked my to remove them. I ‘uninstalled’ them in 2018 when I was in Oakland for 6 weeks in the summer. I was in town for 3 weeks and I was staying at my friends steel string repair shop, when word got out I was there and touching up French polish, I got a flurry of calls to do repair work on tap plates, set up and French polish! I was making enough money to pay for the trip and went home 1600 bucks richer.

The Santos book isn’t a catalog raissone’, so it’s not complete, but I think it makes up for that in how it gets across the straightforward beauty of his work. That’s more important to us makers today than a dry encyclopedic encounter because it helps guitar lovers become acquainted with his work. The more his aesthetic is understood, the better for those of us who consider that epoch a place or area of specialization in our own building. It helps make the case for that time period to be seen as complete phase of guitar making worth continuing investigation.

The book helps to put to rest that we advanced since the mid century Spanish school worked out the format. Those guitars are ‘complete’ and don’t need to be improved upon. Things that come later like Daniel Frederich are a bit of a different thing. Then the lattice and double top event is a side ways movement, not a forward movement.

It’s just time for everything to settle down and stop being this frenetic reach to outdo everything else and embrace the idea that the guitar has already been invented and doesn’t need constant reinvention. The Hauser/Santos zone is a complete place by itself that is still valid. More people are realizing that instead of seeing it as the past. It’s giving a good argument to the concept that guitars from different eras and schools are a series of trade offs in terms of performance needs, and not that contemporary guitars are better.

If you’re a hot dogging international conservatory student and out to win classical guitar competitions there’s a kind of guitar you’re almost expected to invest in. That’s not the guitar everyone needs, or even wants. So the book helps bring home this idea from the point of the beauty of Santos’ work and the testimonials by important guitarists today using his guitars. It’s still important to try to build high quality guitars in that way today.



Firefrets -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 10 2023 10:31:08)

I'd have thought given the variation between woods that it poses a possible problem with shrinkage / expansion, but I've seen a few guitars here and there that have had them applied.

By far, my favourite are that of antique mandolins. I notice that the old mandolin makers didn't just stick them on, but actually inlaid them in to the soundboard. I've an instrument there, probably a few hundred years old that I need to do a bit of work on where the plate is a visual delight. They also lined the inside of the bowls with paper, which I've not seen a guitar maker do before.

I know nothing of Santos Hernandez, other than the fact I can't afford one. There's currently a couple on Ebay but the asking price is above 40k.

I'm a big fan of the traditional 'rustic' building styles. When I look at modern guitars, they seem to follow a very conservative trend.

It's a long conveyor belt of similarity. We can say that the effects of age, and time, is what gives a guitar it's character, but being somebody who deals almost exclusively with vintage instruments, I actually think the lack of character comes from the modern attitude.

One can argue that a guitar should not be an instrument dictated by class structure, but especially in the classical genre, I think there is definitely a swing towards catering for the tastes of the upper class.

I understand that there's only so much you can do when building a guitar that hasn't already been done before, but are modern luthiers a little bit guilty of being sheep / playing it safe?



Fawkes -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 10 2023 17:41:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets
One can argue that a guitar should not be an instrument dictated by class structure, but especially in the classical genre, I think there is definitely a swing towards catering for the tastes of the upper class.


Class isn't a very useful category for thinking about the distinctive aspects of the culture of the classical guitar world. Something about the way Segovia magnified and framed the popularization and bifurcation of the Spanish guitar has had lasting effects, even though many modern players would say they have moved on. You start with the lemming sensibility which is pretty common in any pursuit, throw in Segovia's drive to narrow and elevate the classical guitar, leaven that dough with a kind of self-consciousness guitar people have had about things like borrowed repertoire, volume and mic use for concerts, relevance and popularity. The snobbish aspects of classical guitar culture are in a broad sense not unique, but they have a distinct flavor because of all of the above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets
I understand that there's only so much you can do when building a guitar that hasn't already been done before, but are modern luthiers a little bit guilty of being sheep / playing it safe?


They are, but it's about the same as for other classical instruments in that it's market-driven, and people willing, or in a position to take risks exist, but are just rare. The margins don't encourage high risk investment in experimentation.



ernandez R -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 10 2023 18:35:13)

Stephen,
Thanx for sharing.

Is the book text in English?

Best place to purchase in the states?

Looks like this is a series with other luthiers avauble?

Just coming up for air after a string of non guitar projects sucking the oil out of my fingernails…

HR



Fawkes -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 10 2023 18:48:50)

English yes.

GSI has it and it's a good price when you consider postage from Europe.

I am aware of Martinez' earlier book on Arias. (His magazine Orfeo is along the same lines though, with less technical data from what I've seen.)



Firefrets -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 10 2023 18:55:47)

In browsing for the above book, I came across another called 'The Ramirez Collection: History and Romance of the Spanish Guitar' so my curiosity got the better of me.



Firefrets -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 10 2023 20:08:06)

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets
One can argue that a guitar should not be an instrument dictated by class structure, but especially in the classical genre, I think there is definitely a swing towards catering for the tastes of the upper class.


Class isn't a very useful category for thinking about the distinctive aspects of the culture of the classical guitar world. Something about the way Segovia magnified and framed the popularization and bifurcation of the Spanish guitar has had lasting effects, even though many modern players would say they have moved on. You start with the lemming sensibility which is pretty common in any pursuit, throw in Segovia's drive to narrow and elevate the classical guitar, leaven that dough with a kind of self-consciousness guitar people have had about things like borrowed repertoire, volume and mic use for concerts, relevance and popularity. The snobbish aspects of classical guitar culture are in a broad sense not unique, but they have a distinct flavor because of all of the above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets
I understand that there's only so much you can do when building a guitar that hasn't already been done before, but are modern luthiers a little bit guilty of being sheep / playing it safe?


They are, but it's about the same as for other classical instruments in that it's market-driven, and people willing, or in a position to take risks exist, but are just rare. The margins don't encourage high risk investment in experimentation.


If you could list the top reasons why somebody might buy a brand new hand built guitar, what might they be?



Fawkes -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 11 2023 17:18:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets
If you could list the top reasons why somebody might buy a brand new hand built guitar, what might they be?


To answer that question concretely, i.e. by naming specific characteristics, is something I could only guess at because I am not in the business. To anticipate an argument that ties your question back into the comments you quoted, I don't think that disqualifies my comments about the market. One has only to read the comments of hand-makers of guitars in various venues to see that most are often thinking about the market.



estebanana -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 11 2023 18:20:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernandez R

Stephen,
Thanx for sharing.

Is the book text in English?

Best place to purchase in the states?

Looks like this is a series with other luthiers avauble?

Just coming up for air after a string of non guitar projects sucking the oil out of my fingernails…

HR



The Brunes’ are stocking it. I’d buy it from them.



Ricardo -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 12 2023 17:53:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets

Guitar books are always so expensive...

What are your thoughts on using a veneer as a Golpeador?


I only played the two Santos guitars in Brune’s place, and they were some serious workhorse guitars….not sure if they were exemplary. I still think Conde moved things forward somehow, who knows in what way as the certainly are inline with Santos/Esteso/Manuel Ramirez in general. I will certainly buy this book. But can’t wait till someone makes the “conde” book. [:D][:D][:D]



estebanana -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 13 2023 1:52:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firefrets

Guitar books are always so expensive...

What are your thoughts on using a veneer as a Golpeador?


I only played the two Santos guitars in Brune’s place, and they were some serious workhorse guitars….not sure if they were exemplary. I still think Conde moved things forward somehow, who knows in what way as the certainly are inline with Santos/Esteso/Manuel Ramirez in general. I will certainly buy this book. But can’t wait till someone makes the “conde” book. [:D][:D][:D]



Yeah I’m looking forward to the Conde’ book as well and I have it on good authority that the publisher is going to do the smart move. He’s going to include three chapters which explore the relationship between vintage fire engine colors in the garish / puce red hue and the coloring pigments in Conde’

It should be a scintillating and scholarly book.



Echi -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 13 2023 15:16:02)

It's basically impossible to write a good book about Conde.
Santos made a small number of guitars throughout his life and was a one man shop.
You could say the same about Torres or Barbero but when you speak about a 100 years old dynasty with some heirs still in the business things get complicated.
Someone like Bruné could decide to write a monographic book about the flamenco guitar from the 1950 to 1970 and this would be extremely interesting.



estebanana -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 14 2023 1:21:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

It's basically impossible to write a good book about Conde.
Santos made a small number of guitars throughout his life and was a one man shop.
You could say the same about Torres or Barbero but when you speak about a 100 years old dynasty with some heirs still in the business things get complicated.
Someone like Bruné could decide to write a monographic book about the flamenco guitar from the 1950 to 1970 and this would be extremely interesting.



Domingo Esteso’s career is roughly analogous to Santos’, it would be possible to document his work because enough of it still exists. There’s enough of the guitars from Domingo’s sobrinos to write about Faustino and his brother, although unfortunately a lot of the people who could give good first person stories about them are gone now. After that the way the story goes could be sketched out enough to sidestep the majority of the forays into the various labeling schemes; a chart outlining the labels and where the majority of them were made, that’s probably possible to map out. I think there are a few problems with attribution that I’ve heard of stemming from claims that other makers’ guitars were labeled with Conde’ labels ( interesting story and sad) - but I think up until Faustino’s work that’s signed there’s a fairly strong path if the scope of the book covers Domingo, Viuda guitars, and then until Faustino quits. Mariano of course made guitars, but the way I received the info was that he was more in front of the shop and had a personality that was not as ‘dry’ as Mariano.

Once I asked David Serva to take me to see Archangel because I wanted to know if he’d grant an interview. David said he could take me there, but I could tell you more about him than he could tell you, and you won’t squeeze anything out of him because he’s dry as an old rag. We decided to have a drink instead.

Thus my career as an investigative journalist of guitars began and ended in one sentence.

So any book on Conde’ would work if it were combined to tell the story of Domingo to Faustino, and that would be enough to create a great book. After that, why sort it out now? Not enough time has gone by to tell the rest of the story.



ernandez R -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 14 2023 19:18:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernandez R

Stephen,
Thanx for sharing.

Is the book text in English?

Best place to purchase in the states?

Looks like this is a series with other luthiers avauble?

Just coming up for air after a string of non guitar projects sucking the oil out of my fingernails…

HR



The Brunes’ are stocking it. I’d buy it from them.



Brune website says out of stock... I poked around the web trying to find a US vender but no joy.

HR



Fawkes -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 14 2023 21:43:13)

[edit.] Per Estebanana's later post, it's baa-aaack.



davewphx -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 15 2023 14:49:04)

I know this has been discussed on the foro in previous posts, but I just ordered a copy of this beauty.... - A Collection of Fine Spanish Guitars - from Sunny Knoll publishing. I'm not sure it's ready to ship yet, hopefully it won't take too many more weeks. This 2nd edition has 3 cds, so hopefully almost every guitar has a sound clip.



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Fawkes -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 15 2023 15:48:33)

Yes almost every guitar is on the CDs, all the blancas played flamenco, the rest 'classical'. Bruné is a very strong player so it takes some focus for me at any rate to read past the sound he imposes and the pieces chosen to showcase the particular guitar.

To make it easier to compare the bracing/graduation maps of the guitars I ended up making my own diagrams with the grads in place so I can quickly get a feel for similarities and differences.



Ricardo -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 15 2023 17:47:03)

Great book, I made a playlist that follows the book and marked the ones not recorded so I can skip over them (9, 17, 20, 27, 34, 38). Not sure why they were skipped, but no. 20 should have been recording IMO. The best sounding guitar IMO was no. 13, maple Manuel Ramirez. It visually reminds me of my Sanchis that everybody loves and offers to buy from me.



davewphx -> RE: The new book Santos Hernandez (Jun. 15 2023 20:11:55)

How did the author get access to all the bracing info I wonder. Looks like a lot of measurments are included for some also. Great coffee table book. Those old labels are little works of art too. Stewmac was out of stock, so they may need to still get printed. 🤯



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