RE: A riddle (Full Version)

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edguerin -> RE: A riddle (Oct. 31 2022 16:54:46)

quote:

Hate to be the jerk about this fun stuff…but it is impossible to know that you have cut the constituents by milligrams of each differing pill PERFECTLY that you get, say, 100 milligrams of A (taken) and 100 milligrams of B (saved for tomorrow). So the wording has to be changed or the concept is that one EVENTUALLY has taken both pills by day two, yet it is impossible to know exactly what happened in terms of intake on day 1, but most likely some violation of the terms.

Another solution is to grind the pills in a mortar ...



edguerin -> RE: A riddle (Oct. 31 2022 17:06:58)

Two new riddles:
1. Three logicians (per definition they never lie) enter a bar. Weird sort thinks the bartender, and asks "Each of you guys'll have a beer, right?"
Logician a) answers, "I haven't a clue"; b)answers "I'm not sure" and c) answers "Yeah!" with a broad grin. How many beers should the barkeeper serve?

2. You have 2 fuses (the old-fashioned type you light with a match or lighter), that can each burn for exactly 1 minute. You have a lighter. Is it possible to measure 45 sec. without bending, cutting or measuring the fuses?



kitarist -> RE: A riddle (Oct. 31 2022 17:13:33)

quote:

1. Three logicians (per definition they never lie) enter a bar. Weird sort thinks the bartender, and asks "Each of you guys'll have a beer, right?"
Logician a) answers, "I haven't a clue"; b)answers "I'm not sure" and c) answers "Yeah!" with a broad grin. How many beers should the barkeeper serve?


I think I got it, but it is a really nice one!



RobF -> RE: A riddle (Oct. 31 2022 19:50:06)

I think I have the fuse one covered. Pretty near certain I do. Good riddle.

*edit* at this point I’m certain I’ve got the fuse one. I think I have the logician one, too, but my answer is so silly, I can’t help but wonder if I’m wrong.



chester -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 3:59:31)

quote:

2. You have 2 fuses (the old-fashioned type you light with a match or lighter), that can each burn for exactly 1 minute. You have a lighter. Is it possible to measure 45 sec. without bending, cutting or measuring the fuses?


won't you be able to do it with just one?

or maybe my idea would fall under "measuring". i found another way (this time all by myself) [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 14:45:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

quote:

Hate to be the jerk about this fun stuff…but it is impossible to know that you have cut the constituents by milligrams of each differing pill PERFECTLY that you get, say, 100 milligrams of A (taken) and 100 milligrams of B (saved for tomorrow). So the wording has to be changed or the concept is that one EVENTUALLY has taken both pills by day two, yet it is impossible to know exactly what happened in terms of intake on day 1, but most likely some violation of the terms.

Another solution is to grind the pills in a mortar ...


If you can also weigh the powder and divide it equally…none of which is easy for a blind guy working alone. [:D]

Stop watch on your IPhone?

Two buckets full of H2O and one has a little grape juice in it. Bar tenders should not serve drinks ordered by a single individual if they are physically present. Confirmation is important. I have consumed many drinks indecisive customers have rejected that bar tenders didn’t want to dump (give it to the musician!).

(I know i am the worst buzz kill [:D])



RobF -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 15:53:04)

quote:

* There also appears to be a “trick” answer to this riddle, but it’s still going to be the same.


quote:

Two buckets full of H2O and one has a little grape juice in it. Bar tenders should not serve drinks ordered by a single individual if they are physically present. Confirmation is important. I have consumed many drinks indecisive customers have rejected that bar tenders didn’t want to dump (give it to the musician!).


That’ what I was alluding to with Kitarist’s wine riddle. Once the cup of wine is poured into the water bucket, would not both buckets now simply contain wine? Even though of different strengths? But that’s not the real answer, ofc.



kitarist -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 16:22:22)

quote:

Once the cup of wine is poured into the water bucket, would not both buckets now simply contain wine? Even though of different strengths?


OK but this is not it. Let's clarify and name the bucket initially containing just wine "bucket 1", and the bucket initially containing just water "bucket 2".



RobF -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 17:08:34)

Agreed. I did verify my solution on the web and it was right, although I didn’t see the need to go as far as figuring out mathematical proofs, as I felt it was logically correct. The web explanation I saw used marbles instead of water and wine to make the proof more easily understood.

I considered the watered down wine idea to be a “trick” solution and didn’t use it.


*spoiler* my solution made use of the suggestion that the initial amount of liquid in the buckets didn’t matter, or at least was undefined. So, if each bucket initially contains exactly one cup, then what is the result? That gives the answer, which can then be verified by running some sample initial sizes (or trying to find corner cases) or taking the time to prove it mathematically.



edguerin -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 17:26:32)

quote:

Stop watch on your IPhone?

Two buckets full of H2O and one has a little grape juice in it. Bar tenders should not serve drinks ordered by a single individual if they are physically present. Confirmation is important. I have consumed many drinks indecisive customers have rejected that bar tenders didn’t want to dump (give it to the musician!).


Stop watch would be "measuring" .[8|]
Oh, and the customers aren't indecisive, they're logicians, so they know exactly what they want and what to say. So let's say the bar tender enjoys riddles ..[:D]



edguerin -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 18:30:13)

The answer being logical can't be silly [;)] So if it's "silly" in the true sense of the word, then it's wrong[8D]
Or you're so clever we mere mortals can't compete [:(]
So why not reveal your answer?



RobF -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 18:42:04)

My silly answer was because logician ‘c’ had the money the other two wouldn’t know if they could have a beer unless he ponied up and agreed to buy the round. I’m pretty sure that’s not the expected answer.

*spoiler* I think the expected answer is based upon each logician knowing that they want a beer but not knowing what the others want. So A wants a beer but has no idea what B or C wants, so he must say what he did. B wants one and is also smart enough to realize that A does as well or he would have just said no, but he doesn’t know what C wants, so he replies he isn’t sure. C realizes that if neither A nor B answered no then they both want a beer. He does too, so he happily answers “yes!”.

Did I get it right?



kitarist -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 18:45:25)

quote:

The answer being logical can't be silly


Yes, it is not silly, it is very logical and unambiguous. I shall reveal my solution below... beware of spoilers!







































***SPOILER****

So, the question was if each of the three will get a beer - i.e. is this a true statement.

First says "no clue" - which means that he wants a beer himself, but does not yet have a clue from the others, hence no clue if each/beer is a true statement. The reason we know HE wants a beer is that, if he didn't, he would already know that each/beer cannot possibly be true regardless of what the others say, so he would not have answered 'no clue' - he would have said 'No."

Second then answers 'not sure'. Again this means he wants a beer himself - if he didn't, he would know the each/beer statement cannot possibly be true regardless of how Three answers. Also, he answers 'not sure' instead of like the First because he DOES have a clue - the answer from the First.

Third one then says 'Sure!" - clearly he wants a beer, and, based on the above, knows that each/beer is indeed a true statement.

So the bartender pours a beer for each.



RobF -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 18:46:35)

Haha. I beat you to it![:D]



kitarist -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 18:47:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

Haha. I beat you to it!


Aarrrrghghhh... [:D]



kitarist -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 18:55:08)

quote:

gives the answer, which can then be verified by running some sample initial sizes (or trying to find corner cases) or taking the time to prove it mathematically.


Hmm, OK but the solution is simpler to explain than what this sounds like. I will post it in a bit.



RobF -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 20:08:06)

I’ll post the fuse answer in a bit, too, if no one objects. I’m pretty sure I’ve nailed that one.



chester -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 1 2022 21:00:06)

light both fuses from one end
light the other end of one fuse
when the fuse with both ends burns out that means 30s have passed
the fuse that's left still has 30s to go so..
light its other end and it'll burn twice as fast (15s)

30 + 15 = ???



kitarist -> RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wine riddle] (Nov. 2 2022 0:49:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

gives the answer, which can then be verified by running some sample initial sizes (or trying to find corner cases) or taking the time to prove it mathematically.


Hmm, OK but the solution is simpler to explain than what this sounds like. I will post it in a bit.



Here it is:

The answer is - there is the same amount of water in bucket 1 (the "wine bucket") as the amount of wine in bucket 2 (the "water bucket"). The wild part is that it does not matter how well you mix the wine into the water, and it does not even matter if the two buckets are the same size.

The only important thing is to have transferred the same volume of liquid back and forth, so that the two buckets each end up with the same volume of stuff they started with.

Since the volume of liquid in the buckets is preserved before/after, whatever volume of water is now in the wine has displaced exactly the same volume of wine - and that exact volume of wine must now be in the water bucket.(*)

No need for math! [;)]

(*) We don't know how much that amount is, we just know it is the same amount.



RobF -> RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wine riddle] (Nov. 2 2022 1:13:14)

Your explanation is much better than the one I found on the web.



Estevan -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 2 2022 3:04:01)

quote:

Three logicians (per definition they never lie) enter a bar...

I got the same answer as Konstantin. But first of all, the riddle reminded me of this classic (which also influenced my solution):




Ricardo -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 2 2022 10:44:09)

quote:

Stop watch would be "measuring" .
Oh, and the customers aren't indecisive, they're logicians, so they know exactly what they want and what to say. So let's say the bar tender enjoys riddles ..


Ok, here we go.

The wording was “measuring THE FUSES”, time has nothing to do with THE FUSES, in fact why light them? You have to specifically rule out measuring TIME ALONE in the wording of the riddle.

Knowing what you want is not the same as not STATING what you want. The assumption has to be first revealed that they each actually WANT A BEER. At the brewery I gig at, one partner only drinks wine. [8D]. Hence the assumptions in reality result in myself drinking extra beers. [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wine riddle] (Nov. 2 2022 11:00:58)

quote:

transferred the same volume of liquid back and forth,


Exactly why you must replace the word ‘Water” which implies H2O and is an ingredient in wine, with the word “liquid” which is not so specific since both water AND wine are LIQUIDS. As a thought experiment, change wine to “grape powder” devoid of water ingredient. Then you can see that mixing gives you equal traces of powder in both containers, and the water poured in the powder bucket replaces the missing powder.



Ricardo -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 2 2022 11:06:51)

quote:

light both fuses from one end
light the other end of one fuse
when the fuse with both ends burns out that means 30s have passed
the fuse that's left still has 30s to go so..
light its other end and it'll burn twice as fast (15s)

30 + 15 = ???


Assuming the riddle stated you must use the fuses and not a time keeper, this is good, but you should clarify how exactly you get all three ends to ignite at precisely same moment. Every time i light multiple fuse ends, they each catch at a different moment, some several SECONDS off from each other. Also, you are not permitted to bend the fuses (only one lighter involved). Or the wording of the 45 seconds needs to change to +/- 5 seconds.



RobF -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 2 2022 12:37:02)

quote:

Knowing what you want is not the same as not STATING what you want. The assumption has to be first revealed that they each actually WANT A BEER.


How so? The riddle states each logician will answer the bartender’s question honestly. In each case, if the logician did not WANT a beer they simply would say so and honestly answer no. The third logician was able to answer in the affirmative as he was assured by the responses of the other two that they also had a hankering for the hops, as neither answered in the negative.

In other words, the riddle itself is the revelation. Each of the three answers leaves no doubt as to the desire of the respondent.

quote:

Every time i light multiple fuse ends, they each catch at a different moment, some several SECONDS off from each other. Also, you are not permitted to bend the fuses (only one lighter involved). Or the wording of the 45 seconds needs to change to +/- 5 seconds.


That’s because you insist on buying those cheap-assed orange factory fuses, Mr. Fickle Finger of Fastidiousness. You need to get some proper fuses and practice, practice, practice…[:D]



kitarist -> RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wine riddle] (Nov. 2 2022 15:41:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

transferred the same volume of liquid back and forth,


Exactly why you must replace the word ‘Water” which implies H2O and is an ingredient in wine, with the word “liquid” which is not so specific since both water AND wine are LIQUIDS.


I don't get what the problem is with the original wording - both water and wine are conventionally liquids and the riddle revolves around transferring the same volume of stuff which is both times in liquid form - wine (at first) and water/wine mix (subsequently) - back and forth between buckets. I also don't see 1) how your thought experiment clarifies things in this case, and (2) what it (the thought experiment) has to do with you saying I should have replaced the word "water" with "liquid" in the original wording of the riddle.

Anyway, I thought it was a very clever riddle as it looks complicated and calculation-heavy, yet has a simple solution.



Ricardo -> RE: A riddle (Nov. 3 2022 10:52:49)

quote:

How so? The riddle states each logician will answer the bartender’s question honestly.


Never mind…I guess if nobody says “no” or a specific alternative, then “I will at least” is assumed.



Ricardo -> RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wine riddle] (Nov. 3 2022 11:40:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

transferred the same volume of liquid back and forth,


Exactly why you must replace the word ‘Water” which implies H2O and is an ingredient in wine, with the word “liquid” which is not so specific since both water AND wine are LIQUIDS.


I don't get what the problem is with the original wording - both water and wine are conventionally liquids and the riddle revolves around transferring the same volume of stuff which is both times in liquid form - wine (at first) and water/wine mix (subsequently) - back and forth between buckets. I also don't see 1) how your thought experiment clarifies things in this case, and (2) what it (the thought experiment) has to do with you saying I should have replaced the word "water" with "liquid" in the original wording of the riddle.

Anyway, I thought it was a very clever riddle as it looks complicated and calculation-heavy, yet has a simple solution.


It is a good one. Sorry i was running out the door yesterday. The thought experiment minuses the water from the wine contents already present to show the exchange is equal. The wording, without knowing the starting volumes (in fact let them be quite different) of each bucket is fine in that case. Red and white wine would be a good one too as some would be tricked to think the more pure mixture that starts leaves more behind than is replaced. But with WATER and wine liquid specifically, the statement should read “have we added more of X to bucket 1 or have we added more of Y to bucket 2”. But instead it states vaguely, “is there more water in the Wine bucket or…” without the starting volume comparison, it could very well be the case there is more water in the wine bucket depending on starting volumes, and this situation maintains regardless how much mixing you do. Still calling it a wine bucket until a point such that if you repeat the exchange, the resulting mixing “liquid” in both buckets is equally dilute with more being in the which ever bucket had more to begin with. Meanwhile the “water bucket” is never in any danger of having more “wine” in it, ever, than the other bucket. Perhaps the quantifier “both equally filled buckets” or “same sized buckets filled half way” or something eliminates the issue.

Also just realized the other problem was at the moment you poured the wine into the water bucket, it is no longer a “water bucket”…they become two wine buckets. But I guess you already addressed that with bucket 1 and 2 solution.



chester -> RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wine riddle] (Nov. 3 2022 22:30:09)

by the time ricardo figures out the exact semantics the correct question would be "is there more water in the vinegar bucket?" [:D][:D][:D]



JasonM -> RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wine riddle] (Nov. 4 2022 15:09:34)

Ok I cannot get the fuse one! I’ve thought about it for a while and I don’t see how it’s possible. My brain keeps going to some geometry solution.

- You have “a” lighter, meaning you cannot simultaneously light opposite ends.
- they must remain straight, so this leaves only a few possible configurations:
1. Light both fuses at a vertex. Like the start of both ends or intersect at a point along the lengths
2. Fuses in series , the end of one lights the start of the other
3 combination where fuses intersect at a point, but you light only one fuse and it burns to the intersection and then branches off in 2 or 3
3 Light one fuse only and count 45 seconds lol 😝



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