RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Full Version)

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RobF -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 11 2022 16:19:07)

First off, the damned joke is humorous. I laughed, but then again, I also laugh at my own jokes and, in that respect, often I am the only one who finds them funny. So, points taken.

Not to get into the Maga stuff too deep, but my city was shut down for weeks by the convoy crowd and I experienced their sh*tshow firsthand. The convoy shut down the neighbourhood next to mine and attacked, threatened, and traumatized the residents. The city service staff and police service staff sat by and did nothing. If anything, they aided them. *edit to remove some stuff probably too incendiary for this Foro*

Some convoy members were recently evicted from an uncommissioned church, in the area adjacent to parliament hill, that they were squatting in after defaulting on an agreement to buy it. The community the church is located in protested their presence daily. They engaged with the community by squirting the protesters with water guns filled with who knows what. *another edit out of consideration for the Foro* When they were finally evicted by the courts they said screw this community, we’ll leave it to the drug addicts and thugs that live here. Like they were the glowing examples of righteousness. The church they were squatting in is in the same community that houses the palliative care facility in which both my parents died. During the convoy takeover, medical staff and ambulances were harassed and prevented from entering premises. I have friends who witnessed this. The sick and dying were forced to listen to loud air horns being blared 24/7 outside their windows by these ****s. There are people living in the community the original entrenchment was in who have been diagnosed with PTSD from what happened to them. They are not snowflakes, they were in the equivalent of a war zone where all the support they rightfully should have been able to expect from the institutions they believe in never materialized. An apartment building had gasoline poured in its hallways and its doors barricaded shut from the outside and when the police were called to help they said there was nothing they could do. By-law services refused to enforce any laws that the convoy were breaking (there were thousands of violations and something like five tickets written), citing discretion, yet the city made a fortune ticketing residents for parking on side streets outside their neighbourhood because they had no access to the parking at their own homes.

The stated purpose of the convoy was to remove the Prime Minister from his position and replace him with their own leadership. They taunted him for not talking with them when what they really wanted was a lynching. I watched as the police services put out press releases saying the convoy was contained and the perimeters were being reduced. Every time they did that I walked the few blocks from my house to confirm that the perimeters were actually growing and the police were present and allowing it. One day I was harassed for wearing a mask while entering the grocery store. One block away there were a bunch of trucks and two police cars at an intersection where they hadn’t been the day before. I walked up to them and gave them all the finger. Then turned tail and beat it because these are true domestic terrorists we’re dealing with and are very scary people to get too close to if they perceive you don’t agree with them. What happened that spring was an eye opener and has made me fear for the future of my country.

They co-opted our flag and made it into a symbol of hatred and intolerance. Any time I now see a pickup truck flying the Canadian flag I turn my head away in disgust.

But in all that, the jokes are still funny, dammit.

Arash -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 11 2022 17:40:30)


ORIGINAL: chester

are these what boomers think memes are?

here you go zoomer

Arash -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 11 2022 18:10:01)



It is not about censorship, it is about avoiding the stir up. Everybody knows the dangers of Religion and politics,

It is actually amazing how much more enegry, time and good vibes you get if you just stop talking about these two issues with others. Once you realize there is nothing to be gained and only to be lost, specially online, no matter what, all of a sudden you realize that is exactly what most people in power want: keep people busy fighting eachother over this BS behind their PCs and phones.

I currently have a discord community (not flamenco) with around 13000 active members from all around the world and a strict no politics/religion rule under no circumstances. All of a sudden you see all sorts of people getting along, becoming friends, share their useful stuff with eachother which they otherwise would probably have NEVER done, had they heard some of the beliefs and political opinions beforehand.

Needless to say, many could probably discuss opposing views without getting personal, but it just needs one bad apple in the discussion, to turn south, that is the issue which can not be solved, other than completely prohibit the two subjects, unfortunately.
I just tell people there are enough subreddits, forums, discord servers, websites, blogs and whatnot which they can go to and discuss this stuff if they really need to.

RobF -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 11 2022 18:51:38)

I don’t think any good will come from the polarized atmosphere of tribalism that seems so prevalent in these times, either. I’m going to point out, however, that I did not make one post in this thread before the previous two that wasn’t an attempt to maintain its humorous intent. And, if someone doesn’t like the humour, well, actually, I guess that’s on them.

I have a Facebook acquaintance, a writer, who a couple of years ago posted a joke he wrote about Greta and anger management. It wasn’t very funny, at least I didn’t think so. The ensuing pile-on of people demanding he remove his post grew into the many hundreds, perhaps thousands. He refused to take it down and said people didn’t have to like or appreciate the humour in it, but it was their responsibility to recognize it for what it was. And one thing it was not was hate speech, regardless of some of the ridiculous laws the current administration of my country may pass. He had picked his hill, and the more I thought about it the more I agreed with him.

Recently I saw another post where someone had inherited a number of pictures done by their late father. They found some to be offensive by today’s sensibilities and wondered what they should do with them.* Many people said either destroy them or paint over them. Many disagreed. Then a number of artists weighed in and said that because they were artists their opinions should be given precedence on what was real art and how it should be handled. And that in their opinion it was simply bad art and they felt the work could be destroyed. **

I don’t get it. Just like I don’t get memes, apparently. But I can’t condone that stuff. It really goes against everything I’ve come to believe in over the years.

* The offending artwork was of nudes from various cultures and I think I might even have the instructional book from the 50s that showed some of the pictures and the techniques to be used in rendering them.

** my take is the paintings were theirs to do with as they chose. But don’t be a hypocrite about it by asking for permission to destroy them. Just accept responsibility for the vandalism and move on.

chester -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 11 2022 20:36:02)

those poor poor trumpers can't even find a safe space in a flamenco forum nowadays!
cancel culture gone amok

estebanana -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 3:10:02)

The Dixie Chicks, a country rock group, were and continue to be highly vocal in criticism for trump policies on environment, women’s rights and other issues they felt moved to comment on in concerts. They received pushback in the form of boycotting and even death threats.

Salman Rushdie was brutally attacked last month in front of an audience while preparing to give an interview.

Diego del Gastor played the Marseillaise in public in Franco Spain when this anthem was outlawed from performance.

What do they all have in common? They all drew a line against intolerance. They countered intolerance perpetrated by authority figures.

As artists, creators, musicians, writers we are not all lead to speak about these things, but it’s not correct to ask those who feel it’s important to speak to be quiet. Creating discussion spaces where politics and religion is off limits is a form of confluent group think. If you don’t like that the Dixie Chicks speak against the intolerance and danger of total abortion bans, then either don’t consume their music, or listen and ignore their politics. Or mount a reasoned criticism of their politics and boycott the performances. It seems they will keep doing what they do no matter who buys tickets to their shows.

If you want to live in an oasis of art that’s non political, or non transgressive that’s your thing. You have to engineer the space by yourself as a grown up. You can ignore certain people, create your own private chat space, or learn to tolerate or accept the ideas of others. But you really cannot seriously expect artists of any kind to be quiet or acquiesce to a policy of limits on speaking and thinking. Artists react to the world they are surrounded with for good and bad, tragic and euphoric. If artists can bear living in these conditions and create through it feeling the difficulties and the joy, so can you. That is if you truly honor art making.

You say, oh but I care about the community. You really don’t. What you’re saying is that you want to regulate the community. Care is control.

Piwin -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 9:26:13)


how is it going to end?

Ca me rappelle flyeogh qui s'est barré après une discussion de ce genre. Ca fait chier pke c'était un chouette type qui partageait plein de trucs sur son apprentissage de la guitare. J'lui avais envoyé un mp après pour m'excuser et lui dire que j'allais laisser béton le sujet, mais j'ai jamais eu de réponse. Donc bref, j'suis plutôt de ton avis. D'où d'ailleurs le fait que je supprime régulièrement mes commentaires (quand après coup j'me dis que ça va froisser quelqu'un et que ça ne mène de toute façon nulle part).

Si les gens veulent absolument parler de ces sujets là, la solution serait peut-être de créer un topic unique, du genre "politique pour les anglos". Parce qu'en vrai ce qui est chiant c'est surtout quand un topic qui n'a rien à voir avec ça est détourné et qu'ils se mettent à parler de dieu sait quel problème local a encore mis les anglos en rogne les uns contre les autres. Tu pourrais poster un truc sur la pisciculture au Turkménistan qu'y'en aurait au moins un qui serait foutu de faire le lien avec le racisme aux US... Genre là ce thread, au début j'comprends. Ted Nougat, aucune idée qui c'est, mais j'comprends la blague. Par contre, une fois que ça part en vrille et que ça parle politique US, ben là pour le coup j'suis obligé de googliser qui est qui et pourquoi ça les dérange. Et c'est chiant parce que, comme on a une majorité d'anglos ici, ben du coup le topic va graviter vers ces sujets là qu'on le veuille ou non. Et nous autres ont peu plus participer. Enfin on peut, mais la plupart vont juste nous ignorer. Exactement l'impression que j'ai eu sur ce topic. J'ai essayé de rester sur le sujet initial, celui de blagues bidons qui n'embêtent personne, mais bref, on t'ignore puisque nous autres dans la majorité on a décidé qu'on parlerait encore de nos problèmes à nous et osef si vous autres les pas anglos vous suivez pas. Pas tous hein, mais certains. D'ailleurs c'est assez drôle que leur sujet de prédilection soit le respect des minorités, pke bon l'attitude là c'est "nous on est la majorité, et osef si vous autres vous suivez pas et ne pouvez plus participer à la discussion". Etonning not? 'fin bref... c'est pas forcément voulu, et c'est surement assez normal que ça se passe comme ça, mais niveau se sentir le bienvenu ici, on repassera... Genre ça vous suffit pas qu'on fasse l'effort de parler votre langue pour communiquer avec vous? En plus on est obligés de parler que des sujets qui vous intéresse et uniquement du point de vue que vous vous pouvez comprendre? Mouais, la courtoisie a ses limites... Donc bref, un topic unique permettrait de résoudre ces problèmes là. Ils pourraient laisser un lien vers le topic d'origine qui les a fait réagir, et parler entre eux de leurs sujets de prédilection sans polluer le topic d'origine.

Puis bon merde quoi, si quand tu leur demandes de faire preuve d'un peu plus de civilité, on t'accuse de censure, là pour le coup j'sais franchement pas quoi dire... Renversement des rôles assez débile. "Vous vous méprenez monsieur: ce n'est pas le locataire du sixième qui est anti-fasciste, c'est le fascisme qui est anti-locataire du sixième" (j'imagine qu'il va y en avoir un dans le lot qui sera foutu de croire que si j'ai pris cette citation, c'est pke j'les accuse d'être fasciste... saïeuh...). Et franchement on peut rien faire. La dernière fois que j'ai fait remarquer qu'il régnait un certain nombrilisme américain par ici, le plantain asiat s'est barré, l'air furibond et outré pire qu'une Bénédictine devant un string. C'est comme les mecs qui conduisent comme des teubés et sont incapables de se rendre compte que la route est un espace partagé avec d'autres usagers. 'chier quoi, merde.

estebanana -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 9:44:23)

La majorité des gens ici viennent d'Amérique du Nord et de Grande-Bretagne, et le format est en anglais. Si vous voulez introduire des sujets qui sont centrés sur Franco, soyez mon invité.

We put up with Ruphus posting god knows what for a decade of his sociopathic abuse, I’m sure we can have more ‘non Anglo’ convos.

What happens in the US politically has deep impact on global security and world reactions. We’re about to have an election that will have far reaching global consequences because the up coming November 8th election, mid terms, and the 2024 election will completely shape US foreign policy for years to come. It’s going to start a global power shift if the Republicans win the majority. It’s going to weaken alliances that hold global trade routes open. So excuse the Yanks and the Canadians if they are pushing against the fascist misogynistic and anti semitic radical right wing.

Piwin -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 11:48:45)


La majorité des gens ici viennent d'Amérique du Nord et de Grande-Bretagne,

Yes, that's the entire ****ing point. I proposed that you open a separate "US politics" thread, or something along those lines, where you could post a link to the original thread and take it from there whenever something sparked a reaction and you wanted to get serious about those domestic political/social issues. That way, you could keep talking about it, and the rest of us who aren't North American wouldn't feel excluded on every single off-topic thread that inevitably veers off towards US-centric political discourse, precisely because you're the majority and we're not. I could participate at the beginning of this thread. Then some of you decided to hog the blankets and talk only among your exclusive club of North Americans as if the rest of us don't exist. I'd like to get through a single off-topic thread from beginning to finish without feeling excluded, and I think my proposal would achieve that while not curtailing the discussions you want to have. But I guess that's too much to ask for. Because after all, "you're the majority".

And if something as simple as that isn't possible, then yeah, I'm with Fluknu in saying that you should avoid those topics altogether. Censorship smensorship. It's just a simple cost/benefit analysis: the way it's happening now, the cons of having those discussions here outweigh the pros. Right now all I see is just rudeness parading as defence of free speech. I don't go talking about atheism during a religious funeral, because manners. Same here. Carve a time and a place for those discussions, for sure, but don't impose them everywhere and anywhere as if context doesn't matter.

Ricardo -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 12:36:28)


and the rest of us who aren't North American wouldn't feel excluded on every single off-topic thread

Hey don’t feel bad. Even I’m an ‘anglo’ or whatever, I had to read that entire zombie apocoypse post from Rob above thinking ‘where the hell is this place? It’s a nightmare![:D]”, then finally “Canadian flag”, and was like oh Right, Canada! [:D]. And I still don’t get the Ted joke honestly. His playing is neither good enough nor bad enough to make fun of. And where is Kanye? Are we allowed to make fun of him too?

And Dixie chicks, can we not point out the hypocrisy of their band name (associated with what is now considered racist slave owning southerners, now having switched platforms from democrat to republican or something), which i used to only think of “rednecks”, and their supposed liberal stance? What did they expect to be the response there?

From my apolitical stance, the divisive thing simply pushes people unfairly into two camps, and I pointed it out before and it is simply worse now, that the liberal left has been bullying people and canceling people etc., and the push back is the natural response. So lets talk about the catch 22 of abortion next. You are either robing a woman, and only a woman, of her personal rights to her own being, or you are murdering helpless babies. Get on your side of that line and GO!!! [:D]

estebanana -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 13:08:44)


Dixie isn’t hypocritical as a name if you stop to recognize the nuance in what it really covers. It means collectively the states that seceded that were below the Mason Dixon line. It also refers to a polyglot of southern American dialects which include black regional speech. So whoa on the hypocrisy charge. It’s more in line with irony that the women in the group defend a kind of southern pride, but reject the bigotry of all things trump.

Rob Halford fronts a band called Judas Priest and he’s an advocate for gay rights, being gay man himself. The name Judas Priest does not allude to the direction of his politics, it’s just an ironic coincidence that it’s a goofy reference to authoritarian religion. A Pop/Rock group needs a catchy name.

RobF -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 13:09:54)

Hi Piwin, please don’t delete your comment. It’s needed for context and your feelings on the matter are important., I’m pretty sure to all the participants here.

I considered deleting the one politicized comment I posted but if I were to do so it would be more out of fear rather than respect for the Foro. I lived through that occupation and saw first hand how these people behave. I also saw clearly how deeply entrenched their attitudes are, as it was apparent they had supporters and enablers within the city services as well as on the Police Force. So, yeah, I fear for myself when commenting on the event. I don’t want them to know who I am. It was that nasty.

It was nasty, it was here, but it is also of significance to you, I think. Like it or not, if democracy fails in America, it’s going down everywhere. And that’s where we’re heading if we don’t all start paying attention. Just my opinion, of course, and that’s about as political as I think I ever want to get here. I just wanted to let people know how it was because the gaslighting going on about it is heavy.

Racism concerns me. I don’t talk about it on here and removed the portions of my political comment that alluded to it.

Now, about the censorship. My concerns about that have nothing to do with Canadian or American politics. It lies a lot closer to home because all my talk about censorship was directed towards behaviours I see on this Foro. The original meme was posted as a commentary on that, because I’ve been too cowardly to face it head on. So, I’ll just say it out loud and be done.

It would be nice if the people on here would respect the art of others and not deny artists their humanity and right to exist. That’s all. I wish the Foro would stop mocking entertainers and artists just because they feel they have stepped out of some narrowly defined flamenco boundaries, or that they lack ability. Just because an artist offends does not mean they lack talent, and their arte, as offensive as it may be to the sensibilities of some on the Foro, has the right to exist. There is no room for “us versus them”. There’s too much of that going on these days, and that’s why these discussions tend to veer off into dangerous territory.

I was trying to be funny, on the one hand, but humour is often an attempt to bring clarity. Not simply as a teaching moment from the originator but also for the originator.

It’s just I hate it when people on the Foro attack other artists. It’s been going on for decades. I didn’t join for many years because of it. I used to get really down when I’d read the attacks on and mocking of Juan Martin. I’ve since met people who know him and by all accounts he’s a really kind-hearted and nice person. Why do this?

That’s what my post was about, as well as the bulk of my subsequent posts on this thread. It had nothing to do with American politics, which is a subject I studiously avoid. It was about the Foro, which I care about a lot, too.

I don’t think I’m that deep, so I’m surprised the content of my original post was taken at face value, considering I even said it was referencing current events on the Foro. But, bottom line is I don’t want to fight. Honest. I can drop the whole thing and just avoid discussions where other artists are getting trashed.

estebanana -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 13:39:42)


Just change the title of the thread to North American Stuff and make him happy. I’ve not posted here for 18 months or two years, it’s been a while. Upon coming into looking at what’s become of the Foro it’s looks like a group of guys who’ve closed ranks, avoid challenging each other’s ideas outside music and really don’t want any new stimulus.

Thanks for clarification on my situation with the funky already scarf joined necks.
Oyasumi nasai

RobF -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 13:47:42)

I hope you stick around.

BarkellWH -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 16:21:28)


Honest. I can drop the whole thing and just avoid discussions where other artists are getting trashed.


I think you may be referring to my posts about Rosalia in the thread "Future of Flamenco." If so, I apparently failed to make myself clear. I did not, and have not, criticized Rosalia for being a pop musician. Her popster mantle is irrelevant to me. I criticized her for passing herself off as a "flamenco" artist, which she is not, "neo" or otherwise.

I first wrote about her performance in Washington, DC and criticized the "Washington Post" music critic who called her music "neo-flamenco," thus demonstrating his own ignorance of flamenco. He probably was parroting her promotional material.

I then responded to Richard's post about Rosalia being described as a "neo-flamenco" artist in the latest edition of the "New Yorker," and Richard's comment that it did a "disservice to El Arte." I agreed and stated, "In short, she is committing fraud, i.e., passing off her music as something it is not--flamenco. It is not actionable fraud to be taken to court, but it is fraud nevertheless."

Again, and I hope this clarifies the issue, I am not criticizing ("trashing") Rosalia for being a pop artist. That is what she is. I criticized her for posing as something she is not--a flamenco artist. Unless someone can convince me that she is a flamenco artist ("neo" or otherwise), I consider the criticism legitimate.


Piwin -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 16:50:32)

Not sure what else there is to say, Rob. Last time I exchanged with Stephen he told me to shut up because I don't understand American politics (on a thread that was initially about...wait for it was hot out...), and now he's saying American politics should be inserted everywhere because you're the majority. It's a straightforward syllogism with a xenophobic conclusion. And when I challenge it I'm told I'm the one not up for having my ideas challenged...

I gave it 3 attempts to try to keep this thread from gravitating yet again to that place. To no avail. I'll stay clear of off-topic now so nobody ever gets the misguided impression that there are any other opinions in the world except the big two that regulate American domestic discourse.

And to finish: Endororectocephalic, hypostatically lacking, suprarectally flatulent, cockwombly w@nkmuffins. Not directed at anyone. Just felt good to say. [:D] (but seriously, it really isn't directed at anyone. Just felt a lot better than saying fúck it. [:D])

kitarist -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 17:14:26)


I'll stay clear of off-topic now

Noo, please don't do that, Piwin. You are one of the most interesting people on the foro, and, selfishly I guess, I would like to keep benefiting from your presence and contributions to non-flamenco topics [:)]

Mark2 -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 17:17:21)

I think the issue with Martin is that his popularity exceeds by far his influence among many people who are involved on some level with flamenco. That is always going to create controversy. The fact that he is a nice guy, even a wonderful human, is not material.

Ottmar Liebert is another example, and now Rosalia. I think PdL was quoted as saying there were kids in the street playing better than OL. OL called his first record "new flamenco" so he opened the door. Rosalia, the same.

The Dixie chicks must have known what would happen when they "came out" politically. It took some guts cause they had to know what would happen.

Plenty of artists make political statements, and they have to suffer the result, that being a loss of some of their audience. Their choice IMO.

Companies do it too. A restaurant in San Francisco said they wouldn't serve cops in uniform-that they felt their customers would feel threatened. They paid a price. Personally I think this is foolish, be it a restaurant or a recording artist. But again, their choice.

Professonial musicians rarely critique other musicians, maybe because they know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of it. PdL commented on his frustration with journalists and others.

The general public has no such restraint. I follow a group of 49er fans, and let me tell you, they have zero issue with tearing apart players on the team they profess to love, even though they can hardly lift themselves from their couches, much less play in the NFL. The fact that they may be great individuals doesn't come into it at all. You throw a pick six, and you are a bum.



I used to get really down when I’d read the attacks on and mocking of Juan Martin. I’ve since met people who know him and by all accounts he’s a really kind-hearted and nice person. Why do this?

RobF -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 17:24:13)


And to finish: Endororectocephalic, hypostatically lacking, suprarectally flatulent, cockwombly w@nkmuffins.

I have no idea what you just said, you cunning linguist, you. But for some reason “cockwombly w@nkmuffins” calls to mind an interesting movie I recently saw. Well, not all of it, there were too many pop-up ads so I shut it down….

Piwin -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 18:43:53)

I'm too fickle a person to stick to that forever. Let's go with temporary retreat instead. Probably more realistic.


Don't forget to open a private browsing window when you watch those w@nkmuffin videos. I hear Game of Bones is good and has some interesting revelations about the plot of A Song of Ice and Fire:

When the word "sh1tgibbon" was making the rounds (in the context of dissing Trump), apparently some linguists started talking online about what exactly makes that kind of structure appealing for insults. Mostly just joking around but it eventually led to more serious analysis, and the word "sh1tgibbon" was then used, at least in one serious research paper, as a technical term describing any insult defined by those same linguistic properties (monosyllabic obscenity followed by an innocuous trochee, with the first syllabe bearing the primary stress and the second syllable bearing the secondary stress). Tessier and Becker found, among others, that sh1tgibbons where the first two vowels are the same feel more satisfying and funnier than sh1tgibbons where the first two vowels are different. So fúckpuffin, sh1twhistle and cockwomble are more satisfying and funnier than fúckwhistle, sh1tsharpie and w@nkpuffin. Science. [:D]

BarkellWH -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 12 2022 18:54:52)

Where should one draw the line regarding appropriate subjects discussed in the Off-Topic category? Should there be a line drawn at all? I think we can all agree that racism has no place on the Foro. Religion is a trickier topic. Generalized criticism of any religion should be a non-starter, but what about the treatment of Salman Rushdie, a writer whose own religion condemned him to death? Is that not an appropriate subject for discussion? Religion threatening an artist? Evangelicals banning books in libraries?

Today, one member has criticized those of us who have discussed the politics of both Canada and the United States. In the case of Canada, Rob related his own experience among those who have no respect for anything but their own narrow view. And I contributed with the phenomenon in the U.S., where ignorant people think public health measures take away their misunderstood view of what constitutes "freedom." The member's criticism centered on the fact that the discussion was among North Americans, leaving others out.

If the Off-Topic category must be inclusive, what does that mean? In the past, we have had discussions that, while very interesting, probably did not interest a majority of Foro members. For example, while not an academically-trained linguist, I have always had an interest in language and linguistics. I note that Piwin also has such an interest. Piwin and I, and perhaps a couple of others, have had some interesting discussions on language and linguistics. At one time I cited Sir Richard Burton's method for learning the 29 languages and dialects he learned, and Piwin, citing monographs and books on the topic, offered his take. But I cannot imagine more than a handful of members were interested. Should we have not opened the subject for discussion because of a lack of overall interest?

Several years ago we had (to me) a very interesting discussion on the nature of mathematics, to wit: Is mathematics created or discovered? Is it created by man to understand the underlying physics of the universe? Or does it exist independently of man's thought, waiting to be discovered? Again, was there much interest among Foro members? I don't recall more than four or five, at the most, participating. Should we have been discussing it at all, given the probable lack of interest among the majority of the membership?

What if a member had an interest in and brought up the subject of Mongolian throat singing? As a form of music, it has a vague relationship to the Foro as an Off-Topic subject. But if lines are drawn according to membership interest, would the subject qualify?

My own position is, short of obvious destructive intent, there should be no line. But I would not impose my position on the Foro.


estebanana -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 13 2022 1:31:10)

I make guitars, flamenco guitars often enough. I’m interested in politics and how it effects the the region of the world I live in. And I know there are people on this Foro who absolutely hate the United States, it’s people and everything it stands for, and would be pleased to see it fall and be crushed.

Well I’m not one of them, even though I have a critique for how the US is being run. If the US elects the far right candidates now running for office, ones that openly embrace the ideas of Hitler, ( examples: Elise Stefanik and Paul Gozar to name a few) it will create a change in US overseas relationships and draw the US into an isolationist country. Now I know some people who nurse their hate for the US will delight in this, but for hundreds of millions of people around the world the effects might not be positive.

If the US becomes isolationist the security agreements between Japan and South Korea will be stressed more than they already are, and could be in jeopardy. It would mean the strait of Taiwan will be less protected by the US Navy ships that transit the strait in order to keep it from being claimed as Chinese waters. Big deal you say. The strait of Taiwan is a major trade route which connects India to the west coast of North and South America, and the Panama Canal via Korea and Japan ports. Isolationist foreign policy creates rifts in the Asia Pacific trade alliances, and weakens security in a situation where China is thirsty to dominate East Asia by force.

North Korea would become emboldened to shoot even more ICBM’s at Japan/ the last time they fired an ICBM test at us was last week. ~ the combined aggression of China crossing boundaries in the South seas which threaten Okinawa and southern Japan with NK, if the threat becomes more intense than it already is, Japan will change its pacifist constitution and throw off 80 years of non engagement in wars around the world and re arm itself. The potential isolationist foreign policy of US right wing government would make my city a staging area for a war between China and Japan.

So you haters of the US can enjoy your smug attitudes, but I feel this right wing push to take the government in the US as a world changing problem. And if you think the US is horrible now you should be very afraid of a US taken over by a right wing government.

Now let’s talk about the run off election in Brazil.

Piwin -> [Deleted] (Oct. 13 2022 9:58:45)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 13 2022 10:38:39

chester -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 14 2022 1:59:33)

from a wholesome ****posting thread to an unhinged lecture about geopolitics.

fluknu was right

RobF -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 14 2022 2:14:15)

Could we at least all agree that Bobservation 1240 was funny? Is that asking too much?

But if fluknu is right, he’s probably right. The place is fragile. I don’t know if people are expecting an apology or something.

estebanana -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 14 2022 4:03:31)

Unhinged? Based on what?

What’s fragile are a bunch of guys whining about how uncohesive their boys club is and how religiously oppressed they are while girls in Iran give the finger to regime holding them down. You don’t know what being oppressed means.

Unhinged? The GOP or Republican Party in the US is idolizing autocratic leaders like Orban in Hungary, because they’d like to be in that position in the US. Unhinged doesn’t cover what they aspire to do.

estebanana -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 14 2022 4:49:04)

Italy just elected a neo- fascist president who heads the ‘Brothers of Italy’ party. They are anti-immigrant, anti-feminist and pro Christian to the brink of being theocratic. What if Italy next held a referendum to leave the EU?

What you say? I’m unhinged for proposing this? Remember Brexit? That nationalist fart ? If Italy were to leaved the EU Italxit, what would happen to Escribano and his family? Would he have to move to Ireland then, now that he’s changed citizenship to Irish?

See this isn’t unhinged, this is todays reality.

Escribano -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 14 2022 10:42:47)


What if Italy next held a referendum to leave the EU?

They won't and their coalition is fragile. Won't last a year.


If Italy were to leaved the EU Italxit, what would happen to Escribano and his family? Would he have to move to Ireland then, now that he’s changed citizenship to Irish?

My Irish citizenship means I can live and work anywhere in the EU, with my wife. I am prepared to do so again, but it won't come to that.

estebanana -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 14 2022 11:12:09)

Let’s hope they don’t make headway.

BarkellWH -> RE: UnRemoved, unsorry, geez… (Oct. 14 2022 13:51:30)


Do you honnestly (sic) think that on this forum there are no supporters of Trump, or people who think Kid Rock rocks? I mean, is it a prerequisite to be an american and a democrat to be able to post here?
As it seems not the case, or I missed something, don't you think you're antagonizing/ insulting some people here? And how long before they react? And if they react, are you ready to engage in a serious, open and honnest discussion on the subject? the way it started, I have my doubt.

Apparently Fluknu has managed to convince a few Foro members that he is "right," as at least two or three have indicated. In my opinion, he is not "right." He is wrong on several levels.

One does not have to be, in Fluknu's words, "an American and a Democrat to be able to post" on the Foro. There are members of many nationalities who post on the Foro, both in the flamenco categories and in the off-topic category. Always have been. That this thread deals primarily with American politics, specifically Trumpsters and their malign influence, does not close the door on anyone who wishes to post here.

As an example, I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat. For several decades I have had no party affiliation. I am an independent. What I do identify with, as Stephen noted upthread, is classic Conservatism. In American terminology a Conservative is the equivalent of what in British and European politics would be called a Liberal, a term that has a completely different meaning in the United States.

Trump and his followers are not Conservatives, regardless of what they call themselves. Classic Conservatives support a market economy and free trade (not "managed" trade), defense alliances like NATO among allies (not trashing them as "obselete"), and they take the word of our intelligence community over that of Vladimir Putin (unlike Trump, who sided with Putin in that notorious Helsinki press conference with Putin). And classic Conservatives do not encourage the takeover of the nation's capitol, as Trump did on January 6.

Fluknu suggests that we might be "antagonizing/insulting some people here." Well, if there are such people on the Foro, they are welcome to post rebuttals and state their case. What does Fluknu think, that we are a bunch of fragile tulips? No, Fluknu, we are made of sterner stuff. And he asks, "Are you ready to engage in a serious, open and honest discussion on the subject?" If you have been following this thread, that's what we have been having. Anyone is welcome to join the discussion.

There are plenty of threads on the Foro that deal with flamenco, from technique to its history, from traditional vs. modern to fakemenco and fraud. After all, this is a flamenco forum. But what has always made it so interesting to me is the varied knowledge, interests, and experiences of its membership. That is what makes the off-topic category so important. There are any number of fora that concentrate on politics, economics, international relations, and the like. What makes the Foro unique is it brings together a group of flamenco aficionados who occasionally have more to talk about than just flamenco. In the fraught times we live in, that is a plus.


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