RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (Full Version)

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RobF -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 12 2022 15:36:49)

quote:

And once you have some lighter strings on the guitar and play it for a couple weeks, you might find that you can adapt to it more than you think.


I really think if negotiating an exchange is in play then the guitar should be preserved in the same condition it was in when received. They may want to process the return before shipping out the replacement and if there are signs of usage, strings changes and the like, then there could be a problem. In their defense, the danger of receiving back damaged goods might have been one of the reasons they were reluctant to offer an exchange in the first place.

I would case the guitar and leave it be until the terms of the exchange are fully settled. Fairness has to run both ways.


(But yeah, if the possibility of an exchange falls through, trying out various strings would be a good step to take before committing to making any alterations to the guitar. I agree with you that it might be all it needs.)



Guest -> [Deleted] (May 13 2022 9:28:32)

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AndresK -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 13 2022 11:37:34)

I would go with RobF. Leave it in the case until the change and hope that the new one will be easier. In the back of my head there is still a chance, if 14 days have not passed, to use the EU law for distant purchases as described here: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm



Ricardo -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 13 2022 12:38:04)

Tune strings down a whole step and put capo on 2.



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BarkellWH -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 15 2022 13:47:17)

Andrew83-- You are the one who has the guitar with which you are not satisfied, and you are the one who has been in direct contact with Antonio and the conversational exchanges between the two of you. In my opinion, it is time you took the bull by the horns (so to speak), make your own decision about moving forward on this issue, and do it. Every time you have a new piece of information you resort to asking the Foro what you should do. Foro members have conveyed their opinions and advice to you. It is time for you to decide and act on your own initiative.

Bill



Echi -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 15 2022 16:30:54)

Well, I understand both you and Antonio sincerely. Sh*t happens.
I understand your point as a customer and I understand you to complain with the seller. Where you are lacking is to have had a serious assessment on the guitar issues:
3 mm action at the 12th fret with 8 mm at the bridge is perfectly sound (it means the guitar happened to have a stiff top or "hard pulsacion", as they say) .
If the guitar instead has (let say) 4mm action at the 12th fret with 7 mm action at the bridge, well it means the guitar has a wrong neck angle and you are perfectly entitled to be refunded: it's that easy.
On the other side I am sympathetic with Antonio as well: I imagine Antonio having trusted the Sanchis brothers that the guitar was properly set up and sounding before having it shipped to you.
Eventually it's not nice to find someone complaining about you in a public forum without a say. Whatever the end of the story.



Mark2 -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 16 2022 0:19:16)

I don’t think guitar builders take into account your particular hand size unless they are making the guitar for you, in which case at least some do. When you buy a guitar without playing it, you are assuming some risk, especially if buying from an individual as opposed to an established shop with a clear return policy. If a guitar meets a certain standard of sound, craftsmanship, and playability based on a reasonable expectation, it should not have to live up to a particular player’s personal preferences. At that point it’s up to the player to make sure the guitar is what he wants. Not possible without playing it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew83

Hello Guys!

I have an update, Antonio texted me at friday that the guitar will be finished on moday(tomorrow). He asked me to settle this once and for all
because he would like to get rid of me for good. He was quite agressive, and he has been pretty agressive, unpatient from the beginning.


I emailed Hermanos, two times a couple of days before, to ask for the replacement and to lower the strings for me and he refused me twice saying contact to the seller tho he knew I bought from Antonio.

Then Antonio threatened me if I dare to email Hermanos, he will end the conversation and wont give the replacement guitar.
He told me he sold 30 guitars and nobody had problem with them. I dont know what you think of this, but in my opinion, every single hand is different, we play different pieces ,we are on different levels, so people cant be compared like this.

Now, my fear is, that they'll give me a "bad" , not even the same model just for revenge, and I am pointless. I dont have any assurrance, and of course I need to send this guitar first to him :(



Echi -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 16 2022 10:04:07)

Andrew, your last message left me puzzled and I read again all the thread.
Basically xirdneH_imiJ witnessed that your guitar is 3 mm action at the 12th fret (perfectly fine) with 1.5 mm bone at the saddle.
If this is the case, the pictures of the ruler at the 12th fret you posted are nothing but deceiving. Those pictures make me think that the reason why you started this very 3d is just to push Antonio to replace a guitar you are not happy with.
A faulted guitar is a different matter than a guitar you don't feel comfortable.
Now you suggest the Sanchis brothers may be thinking to send you a bad guitar out of revenge: is it not this an excuse to prepare yourself to send back also the next guitar in case you are not happy with it?

xirdneH_imiJ, you should know the way many Gerundino or Reyes guitars arrived in Uk (yes, I refer to Paco Pena and Pepe Martinez) or if you like we can question also about the way the Vicente Amigo guitars or the Tomatito guitars are sold.
It’s a story as old as flamenco and eventually the reason why Reyes started making the famous C model guitars in the sixties or the Conde shop stopped signing the labels of the guitars sold with a certain musician discount, or even why Arcangel stopped making flamenco guitars ( this is something he himself told me years ago).
There’s always been this grey area of the market of flamenco guitars sold by maestros.
Beside that, the truth is that buying online a guitar is always to take a risk.

I won’t go ahead writing here, but for what is worth my sympathy definitely goes for Antonio in this case.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 16 2022 15:49:11)

Echi, since you called me out, I know how it works, we don't like it but we accept it nonetheless. There is indeed a risk. In this case when you're not buying from an authorized seller but an individual is that there's this whole minefield of what happens when you're not happy with the guitar. Since it didn't come directly from the maker, there's no way of returning to them and it's up to the seller whether he's willing to accomodate the buyer in this case. In this very case obviously Antonio's guarding his prestige, if it was anybody else with no fame, they might have decided to say all sales are final and you try and sell the guitar if you don't like it. There's a whole lot of "lost in translation" bits in there - it's unfortunate when both parties don't speak the same language but google translate is the one that helps you. The subtleties of communication are lost and misunderstandings can lead to bad feelings on both parts. In any case, Andrew's replacement guitar looks much better in setup (2mm at the 12th), hopefully it won't feel as stiff and it'll be a happy ending when he finally receives it.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 16 2022 15:53:26)

Why did Arcángel stop making guitars? I haven't read this story.



Echi -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 16 2022 18:57:26)

quote:

(2mm at the 12th), hopefully it won't feel as stiff and it'll be a happy ending when he finally receives it.

I think you got my point. Stiff guitars just happen: some loves them, some hates them but the 3 mm is a good action average for a flamenco guitar. Happy to know the guy eventually got a guitar according to his likings.
Comfort is also a matter of a fine set up, but you shouldn't expect that from a guitar serially made....

Arcangel, a good flamenco player himself, told me he got fed up with flamenco players in his shop never wanting to pay the right price for the guitar [:D][:D]. Few players used to have money in their pocket really.
A lot of "tocaores" used to ask Arcangel for special prices or to pay the guitar by selling or promoting Arcangel guitars to their students etc.
Eventually he decided to stop making flamenco guitars and to follow the way of Ramirez (they were the years of Segovia) getting rid of non paying customers. Arcangel was lucky enough to have the young Kohno around his shop in Calle Jesus y Maria for some months, who favoured a deal with a Japanese seller for all his future output, mostly classical guitars.



devilhand -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 16 2022 19:08:31)

I hope you got the guitar you wanted. I'm just curious what price range we're talking here.



Mark2 -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 17 2022 16:46:15)

Thought I stumbled on the wrong site for a minute....


quote:

f

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ
hopefully it won't feel as stiff and it'll be a happy ending when he finally receives it.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 17 2022 22:03:35)

sorry :D



JasonM -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 17 2022 22:49:08)

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



silddx -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 20 2022 20:30:43)

The measurement for 'action' at the 12th fret is from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string. No-one has mentioned this to you I don't think.

Anyway, I hope you get the resolution you require for your happiness.



RobF -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 20 2022 23:38:05)

Hi silddx,

I think you were probably directing that to the original poster and not to me. For my part, I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain how to take a proper measurement and then even duplicated his photo in my shop to satisfy myself that the actual action was very likely within conventional parameters and not as initially described. But maybe I could have been more explicit in defining the conventional method.

I hope it works out for him, too, and also for Antonio, as the depiction of the issue here was fairly one-sided, at least at first. In the interests of fair play, I hope an update is provided once all the dust has settled.



Guest -> [Deleted] (May 21 2022 18:55:53)

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Echi -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 22 2022 7:55:42)

If you find it uncomfortable for your standards, this is just a fact.
whatever it is, it's not a neck angle issue, given the action is set a 3 mm at the 12th fret with 7 to 8 mm at the bridge.
You may consider a combination of other things like the stings spacing at the nut and saddle, the frets, the neck shape, the high "pulsacion" etc. It just happens.

Just consider that there is the chance that guitar came out that way by a series of coincidences or that the set-up is like that on purpose as it may fit Antonio's likings.
If this is the case, that one is just not the right guitar for you and may be gold for someone else.



Guest -> [Deleted] (May 22 2022 12:42:41)

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silddx -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 22 2022 13:35:38)

Sorry, RobF you are correct, I was replying to Andrew.



JasonM -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 22 2022 17:03:50)

quote:

it's not a neck angle issue, given the action is set a 3 mm at the 12th fret with 7 to 8 mm at the bridge.


But… with all due respect to you maestros Rob + Echi (I genuflect) , going just by the picture he posted of the saddle, it does not look like there was room to lower it. So ~3mm is as low as it goes. Not bad but not great either for a lot of folks, right?

If the string height at the bridge was ~7mm then perhaps a slightly thicker finger board or less neck angle was warranted?



Guest -> [Deleted] (May 22 2022 17:11:58)

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Echi -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 22 2022 19:08:45)

quote:

it does not look like there was room to lower it. So ~3mm is as low as it goes. Not bad but not great either for a lot of folks, right?
If the string height at the bridge was ~7mm then perhaps a slightly thicker finger board or less neck angle was warranted?


My point is just that the guitar hasn’t a clear issue with the neck angle.
I can be wrong but my eye tells me the height at the bridge is around 7.5 mm (usually the Sanchis bridges are 6 mm high and the bone looks like a little more than 1 mm).
My 81 Ramirez has the same set up…
Now, I am aware that the market follows the trend of low tension strings and 2.8 mm action and I have no issues with that but 3 mm action is a good average Imho.



RobF -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 22 2022 22:17:01)

quote:

going just by the picture he posted of the saddle, it does not look like there was room to lower it. So ~3mm is as low as it goes. Not bad but not great either for a lot of folks, right?


It’s certainly less than an ideal situation, but not unheard of. There’s lots of nice guitars with similar set-ups, and outside the internet or amongst us guitar geeks, a lot of players aren’t concerned about the finer details, as long as they like how the guitar sounds and plays. My Conde is 3mm with no real room to adjust down unless I shave the bridge, but I don’t mind because it plays easy and sounds great. But yeah, for a new guitar it’s nice to see some wiggle room.



RobF -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 22 2022 22:27:02)

quote:

I have the feeling these guys think I am stupid or something. It was me who tried the guitar, so I know what
I felt.

There were literally NO room to lower the bone, and as I told many times, it was more then 3mm, I think it was at least 4mm. I dont think getting used to a very uncomfortable guitar should be natural. That gutiar was more like a classical guitar then a flamenco.

The new one is much better, here is the photo made by Antonio. (My Pedro is even lower then this, without buzzing)


I don’t think people think you’re stupid or anything like that, at least I don’t, it’s just that you’ve made specific claims about the guitar’s action when the picture you posted suggests you have neither the experience nor the tools required to take an accurate measurement. So it’s better to just say the action was higher than you’re comfortable with and leave it at that, I think. I really hope nothing I’ve said comes across like I’m putting you down, but I also think Antonio Rey deserves a fair shake, too.

I mean, you’ve been playing, changing strings, and possibly putting enough wear on the first guitar to devalue it and you’re now getting a brand spanking new guitar in exchange to replace it. I think that shows a lot of good faith on the part of Antonio, he’s attempting to make things right, and that should be respected.

The photo Antonio sent you is a good example of the correct way to take an action photo and it shows the action on the new guitar is very low, quite likely less than 2.5mm. If you’re accustomed to action even lower than that, then I think you’re going to come across a lot of perfectly great guitars that will feel uncomfortable to you. I’m not criticizing your technique or anything, it just shows you’re used to extremely low action. It’s not Antonio Rey’s fault if he didn’t realize that, especially if you didn’t tell him.

Again, I’m not trying to belittle you and I know this experience hasn’t been any fun for you. People on the thread have been sincere and supportive, and everyone has expressed an interest in seeing this resolved in a good way. But that same spirit of generosity is going to apply to Mr. Rey, as well. People just want to see everyone treated fairly. I don’t think there’s any villains in this one.



Mark2 -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 23 2022 4:25:47)

I had a maker refuse to take back a guitar, saying I altered it by changing the strings. I strongly felt he mis represented the guitar. He claimed ignorance, which, given his profession, was absurd. Before it got ugly I decided to keep it. I figured if he was that desperate, he needed the money more than I did. Never play it, and I’d never buy another one from him, no matter how easy it played, or how good it sounded. In fact I wouldn’t buy another one of his instruments second hand either. Once you screw me in a business deal, it’s over baby. I don’t even look at it. Bad juju. If smashing flamenco guitars ala Hendrix ever comes into fashion, maybe it will find it’s destiny. Pisses me thinking about it.



RobF -> RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (May 23 2022 5:34:41)

I’ve had a couple of guitars like that, it’s funny how much you can come to despise an instrument. One of them the seller took back and replaced based on me saying I really didn’t like it, but he wasn’t obliged to. The other one I still have, it needs some repairs, the workmanship in it is impeccable and it’s a stunningly good looking instrument, but I can’t even open the case to take it out and start the repair. I can’t stomach the sight of it. I probably will cut it up and burn it. I don’t want to sell it to anyone else, the darned thing is cursed. It was made by a top Madrid maker, wasn’t cheap, and it’s garbage, in my opinion.*

In the case of the guitar of this thread, once the seller agreed to exchange the guitars the onus is on the purchaser to keep the one being returned in as good a condition as possible. In a sense it’s no longer his property to do with as he wishes. Changing strings shouldn’t stop a return, but a bunch of scratches behind the bridge or outside the golpeador area sure could.


* In defence of the stupid thing, the workmanship truly is amazing, and I’ve learned from examining it. The sound…well let’s just say I’ve learned a lot from that, too, just by trying to figure out how somebody that skilled could have made something that sounds that horrid.



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